'Student Finance 2012 changes – it's time to tackle the ignorance' blog discussion

relic

Seriously, you're talking about hunting now.

Please at least attempt to stick to the topic.

2sides2everystory

relic wrote: »

Again, please refrain from typing complete nonsense. The actual answer / reply to my post was just one paragraph, the rest didn't need to be there.

As someone who is studying ACCA, and currently in the process of applying to do a part time BSc in Physics, I know all too well the costs and pitfalls in undertaking such an education. However, I have my costs planned out. If, as you say, you cannot afford it, then don't do it. I couldn't, and my parents couldn't afford to put me through a university education when I was 18, I've had to wait nearly 8 years to be in a position to do so.

So you are nearly 26 and sitting at your keyboard ridiculing someone over twice your age, who obtained the qualifications you want to obtain for no significant cost over 30 years ago?

You are nine years older than my son so you what have you learned in those nine years that you think I need to teach my son about going to university?

Am I to deny him the money which I could pay cash tomorrow and fund his entire education because it would be good for him if I did that?

relic

2sides2everystory wrote: »

So you are nearly 26 and sitting at your keyboard ridiculing someone over twice your age, who obtained the qualifications you want to obtain for no significant cost over 30 years ago?

You are nine years older than my son so you what have you learned in those nine years that you think I need to teach my son about going to university?

Am I to deny him the money which I could pay cash tomorrow and fund his entire education because it would be good for him if I did that?

Well, your true colours have certainly come out in full here.

First paragraph, pointless.

Second, what on earth has that got to with anything anybody has talked about so far?

Third, you could pay cash tomorrow could you? Well look at you, aren't you very special? Do you want a gold star for that one?

Honestly, get off your high horse, stop talking utter nonsense, you sound like you don't have a clue what is actually going on in this topic.

2sides2everystory

Your parents couldn't afford to let you go to university, relic.

My point was that 30 odd years ago they could have.

I did not say I could afford to put my son through university.

Only because I have lived through rather more years than you, I have creditlines that I am not using much which mean I could pay cash tomorrow and deal with the payments because the interest rates are low. The main creditline is called an offset mortgage.

You can only dream of that because you were denied the chance just by being born 26 years later than me.

Maybe I am not so different to you 26 years on, except I haven't had to learn from the school of hard knocks at such an early age.

jamesd

2sides2everystory wrote: »

The most important thing for A level students to learn right now is that they cannot afford a university education.

Nothing has to be repaid until the graduate is earning more than the average person earns.

It should be clear that something at that level is going to be affordable compared to the situation of average and below average earners paying their normal living costs.

You're right that things used to be better for students from low income families. I was one of them who did well enough in exams and got in just as you did under the much more selective system back then. I'd still have gone many years without repaying a penny under the new scheme and that leaves me entirely certain - because I've lived at those lower than median income levels - that living under the new scheme rules is easy enough at the income level you have to have before you repay anything.

You should stop the scaremongering. Median income is more than half the working population earns and it's completely untenable to claim that repayments that start at that point are unaffordable. Median and lower earners know better than that.

2sides2everystory

I think you should revisit your statistics class jamesd.

Average, median, mean and all that.

I'm a graduate as I said. Judging from the comments from those that endured their own personal hardships to get their degrees, perhaps I got mine too cheaply? In my day the milk round typically resulted in multiple job offers. I hoit the ground running and I reached my peak salary of less than £50K pa 10 years ago. However my current salary only matches the salary I was earning 20 years ago, plus my pension then was a non-contributory FS scheme notartificially constrained by being based on career average. Now my current pension arrangement stinks and I am still too young to start taking any of it.

Remember I hit the ground running after university after multiple good job offers, I have not been ill and I have not been to prison and I am not retired. So what's my average salary or anyone elses' in the current climate got to do with what I should have paid for my education? Nothing. That's what I paid, and that's what it seems to have been worth in the long run when measured in too simplistic terms. I've never been a big earner and now I am a low earner again earning less than a bad plumber. Part of a dust to dust kind of thing? Typical trends is what counts, and if my experience is anything to go by, they typically ain't so good, on average ...

sharkmark

First I must declare an interest (and probably incur the wrath of 2sides...) I work for a University, have been responsible for setting the fees but have also been able to set our financial aid package that we are offering in form of scholarships and bursaries. We agonised over these decisions, trying to ensure we have been as generous as we can, but the cuts forced upon English universities by the coalition have been ferocious. As well as the loss to the teaching grant, we also lost a massive capital grant. This was previously paid for by the taxpayer - now it must be paid for by the students themselves after they graduate if they earn above the £21K threshold. What is really sad is that the government have just made a massive saving in terms of tuition fees (which the tax payer used to contribute toward) but we're extremely unlikely to see this saving reduce our income tax... surprise surprise....

Anyway, I believe the point of this discussion was to educate students on the detail of the system - a situation which is desperately needed so I applaud Martin's efforts. Research sent to me this week indicated that only 80% of students knew they didn't have to pay up front. The other 20% thought you had to pay up front. And the same research has shown that whilst only 10% of students are saying the new fees are seriously deterring them from going to uni - this 10% are nearly all from lower household income groups. These groups are able to access a significant amount of funds so educating them that money is available is vital.

Frankly this discussion should be far more popular and I fear the reason it isn't is because a certain individual is telling us their entire life history and people are not engaging for fear of receiving a rant in response (queue rant I'm sure....)

I for one applaud your efforts Martin, and I hope that students realise that there is far more financial help than the media is reporting. The final thing to remind readers is that I'm proud to work for a university that isn't a private profit driven company, but an education establishment that pumps any surplus back into improving the facilities, teaching standards and student experience. In other words whatever gets paid to the well managed universities will usually just ensure the educational experience just gets better and better.

mel12

I am dissappointed that MSE has chosen to support the student loan changes rather than campaigning against them.
I think they have a number of negative effects even once they are correctly explained (and I agree there are a lot of misconceptions).

For example
- the rises in fees now put university out of the reach of most of those who need to retrain as a result of the recession [if you've already got a degree you can't get a loan].

- A lot of people from poorer backgrounds would be uncomfortable taking on this level of debt - I'd see this as a cultural thing, perhaps caused by seeing the negative effects of loan sharks and doorstep lenders more so than in richer households. I dont think education about the difference type of debt that is student loans will overcome this cultural factor that will stop a lot of bright kids applying to university.

- the removal of teaching grants for universities is likely to have a knock-on impact on postgraduate fees, again there are no government loans/ grants available for these (with a few exceptions like teaching).

- the requirement for universities with access agreements (ie the best rated ones charging the highest fees) to match fund grants under the national scholarship scheme will do little to encourage them to recruit poorer students, who will pose a direct additional cost to the university.

jamesd

2sides2everystory wrote: »

I think you should revisit your statistics class jamesd. ... Average, median, mean and all that.

I used the median income because that's the income of the average person and half of the population is going to be earning that or less. Martin has discussed this in the past and it might be worth a look if you don't see why I used median income.

2sides2everystory wrote: »

So what's my average salary or anyone elses' in the current climate got to do with what I should have paid for my education? Nothing.

Nothing may be what you'd have paid most of the time. If you were making less than median income you wouldn't have had to do any repaying until you were. Martin covered the income and repayment levels and in the subsequent discussion I compared those to how much of the population earns each of those amounts of money. Here's Martin's table with some earnings context added:

Earnings 	Pay
£22,000 	£90	50th percentile is £18,500
£30,000  	£810	75th percentile is £29,500
£40,000 	£1,710	90th percentile is £44,900
£50,000 	£2,610	95th percentile is £61,500

2sides2everystory wrote: »

I reached my peak salary of less than £50K pa 10 years ago.

Any problem with paying some money off a loan at that level of income? Today it's in the top 10% or so of all incomes so it should be easily affordable to do some loan repaying. I simply don't believe that someone making £22,000 a year couldn't afford to repay £90 a year or someone making £50,000 repay £2,610 a year. Those repayments are just too low compared to the total income to be troublesome when compared to what the lower earning half of the population is living on.

2sides2everystory wrote: »

However my current salary only matches the salary I was earning 20 years ago, plus my pension then was a non-contributory FS scheme notartificially constrained by being based on career average. Now my current pension arrangement stinks and I am still too young to start taking any of it.

I also spent many years making less than median income and if the new loan system applied it's only recently that I'd have had to pay off any of it.

I'm currently more fortunate and making more than I ever have, after many years of voluntary and other worthy but low paid work. Since I'm saving and investing more than 60% of it I think it's clear that I wouldn't have trouble doing some loan repaying.

jamesd

mel12, I think support is going too far. It's more like damage limitation and education to make sure that prospective students know that they won't have to pay off anything until they are making at least as much as the average person and even then the payments are easily affordable. Martin's made it clear in the past that he cares a good deal about the chance that those from poorer backgrounds who stand to benefit most from going to university might be discouraged unnecessarily.