'Student Finance 2012 changes – it's time to tackle the ignorance' blog discussion

antonia1

2sides2everystory wrote: »

But hang on a minute, what was a typical student debt under the old scheme? Was it front ended by £27,000 or £36,000 of finger in the air academic fees? No it wasn't. As brummierebel points out, after the 2005 changes, many students were able to get maintenance grants again. Was a typical student debt even as high as those numbers at all (including accumulated living costs)? I don't think so. Students from low income families certainly did not "typically" accumulate debts like that (sure lots did but I am not convinced that hoards of them did) - many risked their studies a bit more than is sensible and took low-paid part time jobs and shopped around for interest free overdrafts and generally kept a lid on what was a tough challenge but one which at least was bounded within sight when they looked into the future. Nevertheless for many it was too much and sunk those from low income families who had no resource to bail them out.

Actually, plenty of people from low income families have accumulated debts like that. Maintenance grants cover only some of living costs - not any tuition fees at all. So say a typical university charges £3000 per year for 4 years - thats £12 000 in tuition fees alone. Those students who are serious about university often make the decision to take put study first and take the maintenance loan knowing that it will increase their chances of getting a high quality education and therefore improve their chances in the workplace. In addition, some universities (ie oxbridge) practically forbid working during term time due to study commitments and therefore students have no option but to take on more debt.

Certainly I do not regret the decision I made to accept the debt, gain a MEng and get offered a job before I even left uni. It was worth every penny of the £25 000 it cost me (or £67 per month repayment which I wouldn't even be paying yet under the new scheme). Everyone should make their own decision on these matters, but fully understanding the system simply facilitates a more informed decision.

relic

2sides2everystory wrote: »

OK so the old scheme meant that 9% of earnings above £15,000pa were payable towards any loan and now its 9% of £21,000pa?

bla bla bla bla and so-on.....

Aren't you an incredibly angry person?

I suggest before your next "wall o' text", you read what this topic is about, and do a little research. Oh, and try to be a little concise, I got lost a few times in your text.

2sides2everystory

Yes relic I am angry, but there is absolutely nothing incredible about that. I have good reason to be. I have spent a lifetime as a citizen of a country that has gone from "you've never had it so good" to the very pits in most departments.

Currently we have a country as evidenced by the kowtowing in London earlier this week that is all dressed up, but with nowhere in mind to go, except of course to yet another war - we are not even good at that anymore.

I don't see what is to be researched. You are the clever one, relic with your bla bla bla put down. What do you think is to be researched? Perhaps you'd care to tell remind me what I need to know as a parent of a 2012 university entrant?

Meantime, perhaps you might desist from making personal insults.

antonia1

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Yes relic I am angry, but there is absolutely nothing incredible about that. I have good reason to be. I have spent a lifetime as a citizen of a country that has gone from "you've never had it so good" to the very pits in most departments.

Currently we have a country as evidenced by the kowtowing in London earlier this week that is all dressed up, but with nowhere in mind to go, except of course to yet another war - we are not even good at that anymore.

I don't see what is to be researched. You are the clever one, relic with your bla bla bla put down. What do you think is to be researched? Perhaps you'd care to tell remind me what I need to know as a parent of a 2012 university entrant?

Meantime, perhaps you might desist from making personal insults.

May I remind you that Martin's blog was exactly aimed at telling you what you need to know. You've yet to give a reason why passing along information is a bad thing. Surely knowledge is power?

Plenty of people should be angry, but perhaps we should be a little humble too. We live in a country where we get free healthcare, free education to 18, support if we lose our jobs, clean water, (generally) reliable energy supplies and a million other things that plenty of people across the world do not have.

2sides2everystory

Let me get this right antonia.

You think it cost £25,000 for an MEng course lasting 5 years and you had debts of precisely that amount when you completed it, but have managed to reduce your debt to just £2,355 in 3 years since you finished it?

Is that all normal?

And now people like me plus people like you are all supposed to be humble and grateful for the current state of affairs despite people like me remembering when things were so much better for low income families? You also think we have "support" if we lose our jobs ... Hmmmmm. I would recommend that you don't test that one. What do you remember of how it was when you were younger, say 15 years ago in your case? 1996. I had two very small kids in 1996 and I'd just got a new job at a salary that equated with what I was earning 6 years before that.

antonia1

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Let me get this right antonia.

You think it cost £25,000 for an MEng course lasting 5 years and you had debts of precisely that amount when you completed it, but have managed to reduce your debt to just £2,355 in 3 years since you finished it?

Is that all normal?

And now people like me plus people like you are all supposed to be humble and grateful for the current state of affairs despite people like me remembering when things were so much better for low income families? You also think we have "support" if we lose our jobs ... Hmmmmm. I would recommend that you don't test that one. What do you remember of how it was when you were younger, say 15 years ago in your case? 1996. I had two very small kids in 1996 and I'd just got a new job at a salary that equated with what I was earning 6 years before that.

My total debt was approximately £25 000 in student loans and overdraft after completing a 5 year MEng course. I do not count the student loan as part of my debt target as I have no intention of paying it back early. Amongst my peers, both the amount owed and decision now to consider it as a sort of tax are both fairly typical.

I am from a farming family where my parents and most their siblings were intelligent enough to go to university but had to start work at 16 as their parents could not afford to keep them. So yes, I am very grateful for the opportunities I have had.

Back to the point in hand - why is educating people about student finance a bad thing?

2sides2everystory

I thought I already explained.

It is because most cannot afford it and if anyone tries to promote it in any other way then they are mis-selling.

antonia1

2sides2everystory wrote: »

I thought I already explained.

It is because most cannot afford it and if anyone tries to promote it in any other way then they are mis-selling.

Thanks, I think I missed that in earlier posts.

Promotion and education are different things. Surely educating people to the real cost will allow them to understand if they cannot afford it.

relic

2sides2everystory wrote: »

Yes relic I am angry, but there is absolutely nothing incredible about that. I have good reason to be. I have spent a lifetime as a citizen of a country that has gone from "you've never had it so good" to the very pits in most departments.

Currently we have a country as evidenced by the kowtowing in London earlier this week that is all dressed up, but with nowhere in mind to go, except of course to yet another war - we are not even good at that anymore.

I don't see what is to be researched. You are the clever one, relic with your bla bla bla put down. What do you think is to be researched? Perhaps you'd care to tell remind me what I need to know as a parent of a 2012 university entrant?

Meantime, perhaps you might desist from making personal insults.

Again, please refrain from typing complete nonsense. The actual answer / reply to my post was just one paragraph, the rest didn't need to be there.

As someone who is studying ACCA, and currently in the process of applying to do a part time BSc in Physics, I know all too well the costs and pitfalls in undertaking such an education. However, I have my costs planned out. If, as you say, you cannot afford it, then don't do it. I couldn't, and my parents couldn't afford to put me through a university education when I was 18, I've had to wait nearly 8 years to be in a position to do so.

2sides2everystory

antonia1 wrote: »

Thanks, I think I missed that in earlier posts.

Promotion and education are different things. Surely educating people to the real cost will allow them to understand if they cannot afford it.

Sorry I started editing my earlier post .... It is a question of how you define "afford".

For example, I know something about arable farming. My father worked on a small mixed farm. He started work at 14. He was sent half way round the world to war at 18 because he refused to apologise for speaking his mind to a wartime county agricultural inspector who turned up one afternoon on the farm and started adjusting my father's plough. My father's reserved occupation status was rescinded to teach him a lesson in manners. People in positions of power can be quite dangerous. Luckily my father survived, and begat me.

I also worked on a farm as a student. I was even a "young farmer" like you probably were Antonia. Some of my siblings have worked around farms all their lives since they were 16. I am aware that farmers sons and daughters did not go into farming after about 1980 unless they were only children. Before that, most farmers children did not go to university. AFter 1980 there just wasn't much work anymore was there after the 200hp tractor, the 8 furrow plough and the 30 foot cut combine harvester hit the scene ... not forgetting the spraying machine to do away with those bits of nature that were a perennial nuisance to making money, and of course the Range Rover to cruise the country lanes with when the sun shone. Quite major investments for businesses to make each year eh? Ehm ... remind me again who subsidised that lot and why it did not go into education instead? I am not saying that your branch of farming was subsidised, but if your parents were university educated, I am sure they will have ensured that they worked that particular system quite satisfactorily, don't you ?

Interesting that you don't count your student loan as part of your debt target. That is at the crux of my point - should we really educate our children in the virtues of the never never?

Sad to say, but I think we might have very different concepts of what the verb "to afford" might mean, antonia.

And we all need to be humble now, do we? ... don't let me stop you if you feel the need.

BTW I am anti-hunt unless it involves setting the dogs on those responsible for the spectacular financial crashes of our times. That I shall enjoy.