red route fine

clover85

Hello, i stopped at the side of the road in tooting to pick someone up, I'm not from london so dont really know the red route system. I received a PCN today and was just wondering if anyone thinks i have a leg to stand on.

The picture with the letter clearly shows i stopped on a single line either because its a double that has worn away (probable) or it is a single line (unlikely as it was at midnight so the rules of single line prob dont apply..?)
To further complicate it was next to a bus stop and there are other cars parked behind me (hence why i stopped there to begin with!)

Should i contest or take it like a girl?

thanks! will post pic if needed, if it helps it was literally outside tooting bec tube

sabz3008

Usually it's best to take these things to Pepipoo.com .... But as I live nearby to Tooting, and have contested three PCN's from TFL and been successful, I'll try and help you out with this one. Which side of the underground station is it? Trinity Road? Tooting Bec Road towards Streatham? Tooting High Street? There's bus stops in all four corners so would help if you let me know which exact location it is / Post pics if you can.

Generally, it's always best to appeal TfL fines...I'm guessing it's TfL as Wandsworth council don't deal with red routes. I'm also guessing it's a CCTV fine?... Please post more info

Edit: Also this is very important. What TIME did you stop there and for how long?

clover85

thanks for the reply, it is TfL. as i am a new user it wont let me post a pic, unless you know a way round this too!
i was on tooting bec road, facing tooting bec underground, literally outside the chippy for approx 5 mins. my lights were still on as i wasnt there long and thats in the pic. i stopped, then reversed back so i was fully out the bus lane and in front of the other parked cars. This was at 23.55 on a week day, obvs if it was during the day this would have been impossible anyway. Im an idiot really as I never drive to london, this was a one off and as i said i dont understand red routes etc. thanks for your time

Tilt

Is tis where you stopped?

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Tooting+Bec+Road,+Wandsworth&aq=3&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=13.992538,46.362305&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Tooting+Bec+Rd,+Wandsworth,+Greater+London,+United+Kingdom&ll=51.435417,-0.158744&spn=0,0.045276&z=15&layer=c&cbll=51.435436,-0.158934&panoid=OdSdecvSfxv3f7tJ7jp03A&cbp=12,150.71,,0,3.12

If so, it appears that the restriction applies at any time. A red route is the same as a clearway which means no stopping.

sabz3008

clover85 wrote: »

thanks for the reply, it is TfL. as i am a new user it wont let me post a pic, unless you know a way round this too!
i was on tooting bec road, facing tooting bec underground, literally outside the chippy for approx 5 mins. my lights were still on as i wasnt there long and thats in the pic. i stopped, then reversed back so i was fully out the bus lane and in front of the other parked cars. This was at 23.55 on a week day, obvs if it was during the day this would have been impossible anyway. Im an idiot really as I never drive to london, this was a one off and as i said i dont understand red routes etc. thanks for your time

Thanks for the info. You were probably caught by the CCTV camera placed near the underground station. The one thing you can argue about is Section 48 of the secretary of state's statutory guidance to local authorities & IOC CCTV Code of practice. However, as it's TfL, they somehow have some sort of exception to this and come out with some gibberish about it.

REGARDLESS,

Double red lines in London indicate that you are not allowed to park at all , 24 hours. If it's a single red line, you are allowed to park there for after 7 pm in most cases. Does your PCN indicate how long you were 'observed' for?

I've written to Sadiq Khan MP about signage as there is no appropriate signage about CCTV....But my suggestion is this letter template:

PCN Number:
For Vehicle Registration Number:
Issued at:
Your Name
Your Address

I wish to appeal the above PCN issued by CCTV on the following grounds:

1. Section 48 of the The Secretary of State's Statutory Guidance to Local Authorities on the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions states "The Secretary of State recommends that approved devices are used only where enforcement is difficult or sensitive and CEO enforcement is not practical". Section 87 of the Traffic Management Act states that local authorities must give regard to this guidance.

2. The IOC CCTV code of conduct states that warning signs should be placed where CCTV is in use. No such signs were in place in the location where this PCN was issued therefore it is invalid. This has been confirmed at Adjudicator by the case of Rachel Johnson v Wirral. Quote form the code of conduct:

"You must let people know that they are in an area where CCTV surveillance is being carried out. The most effective way of doing this is by using prominently placed signs at the entrance to the CCTV zone and reinforcing this with further signs inside the area. ....... Clear and prominent signs are particularly important where the cameras themselves are very discreet, or in locations where people might not expect to be under surveillance. As a general rule, signs should be more prominent and frequent where it would otherwise be less obvious to people that they are on CCTV

Signs should:

• Be clearly visible and readable;
• Contain details of the organisation operating the system, the purpose for using CCTV and who to contact about the scheme (where these things are not obvious to those being monitored); and
• Be an appropriate size depending on context, for example, whether they are viewed by pedestrians or car drivers."

3. I do not believe that the double red lines were marked clearly at the time of the alleged offence. There were other vehicles parked within the vicinity.

I do not believe that the above mentioned guidelines have been satisfied nor the case for Tooting Bec Road, as I did not see any signage to warn of CCTV, nor do I believe that it is justified to be observing vehicles at 23:55 for minor alleged contraventions which pose little to zero risk to other road users. I do not believe that a contravention has taken place on the pure basis that my vehicle was not causing obstruction nor a danger to other road users, hence I trust the PCN will be cancelled taking the above into consideration and the fact that this is a first time alleged contravention on my part.

If you reject my appeal please send with your response a copy of the relevant traffic order and proof that the camera in use is an approved device as well as the camera safety and maintenance logs. Please consider this a request under the freedom of information act. I wish to also request the following information should my appeal be rejected:

• The CCTV camera's instruction manual for operation as well as information regarding the amount of PCN's issued using this CCTV camera, and the frequency of PCN's issued.
• Road maintenance logs, and information regarding the time and date the red route markings were inspected and if necessary, re-painted
• Information about the amount of PCN's issued around the Tooting area due to alleged 'red route' offences
• Information about the amount of successful and unsuccessful appeals to alleged 'red route' offences around the Tooting area
• Information about the amount of PCN's issued across the London area via CCTV for alleged red route offences and further to this, information about the amount of successful and unsuccessful appeals to alleged red route offences within the London area.
• Information on the amount of revenue generated through PCN's issued due to red route offences
• Information on the amount of vehicles involved in accidents within the Tooting area, and within the London area due to red route offences.
• Information on the amount of PCN's that have been successfully appealed for other red route offences across the Tooting area, and the London area

I request the above information only in the event that my PCN is not cancelled. This is to ensure that I have all evidence relevant to my case should this proceed further and if I may need to go to an adjudicator later on.

After further inspection of the local area where the alleged contravention took place, it’s clear that there has been a breech of the IOC CCTV Code of conduct on TFL and Wandsworth Council’s part. I must also stress that in the unlikely event that my grounds for appeal aren’t taken seriously, I will be taking this matter further and contacting an adjudicator.

Yours faithfully,

Your Name

Also, another thing about London - NEVER Park your vehicle on kerbs I learnt a tough lesson with that one!

Just edit that letter accordingly, send it off, and hope for the best - After all, there may have been some sort of error on the CCTV operators part, you never know!

---

Edit:

Also, you're not an idiot...Many people get stung from CCTV tickets from TfL, I personally believe these to be extraordinarily unfair as there isn't even adequate signage to let people know of where CCTV cameras are. Furthermore, there's the Traffic Management Act 2004, specific to London which has all sorts of awkward rules for London, different to anywhere else in the country. Where you were parked, you were guaranteed a ticket. I know many of the cabbies in the area to get tickets in that area. Oposite the road, there's a PARKING Bay, which is actually a double red line too! - You'll get a ticket for parking in a parking bay at 3 in the morning! - It's all very awkward. Just stick to your guns, and see whether or not they will accept your appeal or be willing to be taken to an adjudicator for how unfair they've been! - By sending the FOI request, you will effectively have access to info on how many tickets have been cancelled. As a local authority, they need to be fair...So you could then argue that they've not been fair. Once your appeal decision comes through, PM me and let me know of the outcome!

sabz3008

Oh, forgot to mention - the TfL e-mail address for appeals is: enquiries@tflcroydon.co.uk

You should receive an e-mail receipt...If you do NOT receive the e-mail receipt, contact them or send the appeal via 1st class recorded post

DaveF327

I feel for you being in an unfamiliar area, but please remember that red routes aren't only found in London. The rules are published in the Highway Code and are required to be learned to pass the driving theory test.

I hope you'll find the following info useful.



This is taken from the back pages of the Highway Code.

clover85

thank you for your wonderful response, you are a credit to this website I will take youre advice and see how it goes. I will let you know how it goes!

Thanks again

sabz3008

clover85 wrote: »

thank you for your wonderful response, you are a credit to this website I will take youre advice and see how it goes. I will let you know how it goes!

Thanks again

I hope it works for you, although - They do make up some nonsense regarding IOC guidelines, and so it's not 100% whether your appeal will be successful or not, but I hope it is!