Cis (again!)

Lifeisbutadream

I have two businesses that I am required to pay CIS for, which is a pain enough in itself, but when I first started paying CIS for the second business, I rang to specifically ask whether I needed to verify everyone again as it was generally the same contractors used.

I was told 'no' I didnt have to verifiy again.

I have since been told that I should have verified them again and that I should have ignored the advice given to me and that I was in the wrong!

How can they expect me to know which advice to ignore and which to listen to?? I am throroughly fed up of the incompetence of the CIS - I am currently on hold waiting to find out how I am supposed to pay this month - I cant get online as I dont have an activation code and I dont have a paying in book. I spent almost a full day last week trying to sort it out and didnt get anywhere (I can be waiting for ages on one number, only to be told that I need to phone another number!)

DCodd

Lifeisbutadream wrote: »

I have two businesses that I am required to pay CIS for, which is a pain enough in itself, but when I first started paying CIS for the second business, I rang to specifically ask whether I needed to verify everyone again as it was generally the same contractors used.

I was told 'no' I didnt have to verifiy again.

I have since been told that I should have verified them again and that I should have ignored the advice given to me and that I was in the wrong!

How can they expect me to know which advice to ignore and which to listen to?? I am throroughly fed up of the incompetence of the CIS - I am currently on hold waiting to find out how I am supposed to pay this month - I cant get online as I dont have an activation code and I dont have a paying in book. I spent almost a full day last week trying to sort it out and didnt get anywhere (I can be waiting for ages on one number, only to be told that I need to phone another number!)

Hi life, I am still waiting for an activation code for a second company we have, but HMRC issued me with a manual return (CIS300) within the New Company pack so I am going to use that.
I understand that they would want you to re-verify the subbies but if you were told that the verification numbers from the other Company were ok then I fail to see how this is your fault. The CIS helpline is supposed to be just that, a helpline and the point of contact for advice for the CIS scheme and the administration of it.

Lifeisbutadream

DCodd wrote: »

Hi life, I am still waiting for an activation code for a second company we have, but HMRC issued me with a manual return (CIS300) within the New Company pack so I am going to use that.
I understand that they would want you to re-verify the subbies but if you were told that the verification numbers from the other Company were ok then I fail to see how this is your fault. The CIS helpline is supposed to be just that, a helpline and the point of contact for advice for the CIS scheme and the administration of it.

DO they just make things up?

I have now been told that I only need to pay quarterly as the expected amounts are less than £1500 (not sure where they get that from as they are usually higher than that, only the last two have been lower)

The problem I have is that you listen to them, do as they say and if it is wrong I am liable and it is my error!!! how can you win here?

chrismac1

One potential problem here is that there are different rules for sole traders and limited companies. For a sole trader (or partnership) all CIS tax is due on 19th of the month following the month of payment. If this results in an overpayment of tax - which it normally does - this is claimed back on the end of year tax return. I currently have 5 of these in process for different clients.

For limited company you can net off the CIS tax on your P32 as part of the overall PAYE. If the MONTHLY PAYE bill is under 1,500 you can pay quarterly on 19 July, 19 oct, 19 Jan and 19 April.

If it was me I would verify all the sub-contractors in the new business under the new reference. It does not take long and prevents any further "jobsworthy" fines or other problems from deemed non-compliance. If there is any sector above all others where HMRC can be relied on to be more incompetent and aggressive than normal - and beleive me that is really saying something! - CIS is the sector. For this reason many accountants simply won't touch CIS clients.

Personally I ask a lot of questions now before taking on CIS work. I had one client who assured me he thought admin. was important, kept paying folk without a UTR. The final straw was he paid a guy £1,500 on someone else's UTR. Unfortunately many people in the industry operate like this, hence the reason it is the only sector with a tax system all to itself.

Lifeisbutadream

This gets worse.

I rang today (and got the most sarcastic !!!!!! I have ever had the displeasure of speaking to - they seem to think everyone should know everything about HMRC and CIS and are stupid when they dont).

One of my contractors, for some reason I have not got his correct UTR number - I have the original Verification number, but they could not find him on the system, so I could not verify him! When I asked whether he could check from the original verification number, he said that it didnt mean anything???!!! now I am concerned that all the tax I have been paying has gone to the wrong person and I wont be able to do a thing about it??

Can anyone advise? what can I do? I have asked him for his UTR again, but what if I have been paying it to the wrong person? how can I find out?

I am so fed up of CIS - I seem to spend more hours trying to sort that out than actually doing any work. Its ridiculous!

chrismac1

As I said, HMRC staff are generally pretty unhelpful but the worst of the lot are CIS. When you say you have the original verification number, what exactly do you mean by that? Do you mean that at some point in the past you have successfully verified this number to the database and received a time and date stamp from HMRC?

Note that I recommend using external software - if not take a copy of EVERY time and date stamp you get because the gits are capable of deleting submissions then fining you £100 for each one they've deleted. How do I know this - because it's happened twice to me and both times I'd used external software so HMRC had nowhere to run.

Back to the point. If you have that time and date stamp then HMRC cannot argue that at that point in time that UTR was valid in their system. So now the ball is in their court to identify exactly what they've done with his record. Possible explanations:

1. He is no longer self-employed - unlikely as getting a UTR is much, much easier than getting rid of one!
2. They have deleted him from their database by mistake.
3. They have merged his record with someone else or otherwise made a total mess of things.

Whichever way, if you have that date and time stamp, put the ball in their Court very firmly and threaten to escalate it in the face of any weasel words like "not in my procedures", "Not me Guv, phone Jenny in the Timbuctoo" office or all the myriad excuses used to deal with the "too difficult" pile.

Lifeisbutadream

chrismac1 wrote: »

As I said, HMRC staff are generally pretty unhelpful but the worst of the lot are CIS. When you say you have the original verification number, what exactly do you mean by that? Do you mean that at some point in the past you have successfully verified this number to the database and received a time and date stamp from HMRC?

Note that I recommend using external software - if not take a copy of EVERY time and date stamp you get because the gits are capable of deleting submissions then fining you £100 for each one they've deleted. How do I know this - because it's happened twice to me and both times I'd used external software so HMRC had nowhere to run.

Back to the point. If you have that time and date stamp then HMRC cannot argue that at that point in time that UTR was valid in their system. So now the ball is in their court to identify exactly what they've done with his record. Possible explanations:

1. He is no longer self-employed - unlikely as getting a UTR is much, much easier than getting rid of one!
2. They have deleted him from their database by mistake.
3. They have merged his record with someone else or otherwise made a total mess of things.

Whichever way, if you have that date and time stamp, put the ball in their Court very firmly and threaten to escalate it in the face of any weasel words like "not in my procedures", "Not me Guv, phone Jenny in the Timbuctoo" office or all the myriad excuses used to deal with the "too difficult" pile.

I dont have any time and date stamps and I certainly dont have any external software (and couldnt afford to)

I have no idea what has happened. The UTR that I have i socmpletely different to the one that he has now given me! I have full records of everything I have paid him, going back 4 years - what could happen here?

Pennywise

Lifeisbutadream wrote: »

I dont have any time and date stamps and I certainly dont have any external software (and couldnt afford to)

So you can't afford £55 p.a. for https://www.moneysoft.co.uk payroll software that deals brilliantly with CIS (and also your payroll), including all the online verifications and submissions? Given the amount of time it will save you as opposed to the slow/clunky HMRC website it'll pay for itself within a month.

DCodd

Pennywise wrote: »

So you can't afford £55 p.a. for www.moneysoft.co.uk payroll software that deals brilliantly with CIS (and also your payroll), including all the online verifications and submissions? Given the amount of time it will save you as opposed to the slow/clunky HMRC website it'll pay for itself within a month.

To be fair Pennywise, if the CIS helpline couldn't verify the subbie then no software package could either.

Life, we have been getting this a couple of times recently. It seems to be when the subbie has had their status changed or have challenged a change and it seems to affect partnerships more than most. The database doesn't seem to be able to keep up and so it defaults to "unrecognised" and demands a 30% deduction. It also could be that a sole trader turns to a LTD company ands so get a new UTR.

Lifeisbutadream

The mistake appears to be mine - for some reason on his statements it is showing another companys UTR, which is what I was using. I must have verified him in the first place, but I do remember his name appearing twice on some CIS forms a long time ago and wonder whether that was when a mix up occured.

I am seriously worried now - will the tax payments have gone to theis other company? how can I find out? if they have can I get them back? they amount to £4600 over 3 years!!!

DCodd

Lifeisbutadream wrote: »

The mistake appears to be mine - for some reason on his statements it is showing another companys UTR, which is what I was using. I must have verified him in the first place, but I do remember his name appearing twice on some CIS forms a long time ago and wonder whether that was when a mix up occured.

I am seriously worried now - will the tax payments have gone to theis other company? how can I find out? if they have can I get them back? they amount to £4600 over 3 years!!!

Was the NI number incorrect as well? What about the address?