employer refuses paid holidays

19lottie82

Hi Sue, we have all been there the same time, as the pub was taken over at the start of December last year.

TBH I wouldn’t be that fussed if your suggested scenario did happen, I think I’m going to leave at the start of July anyway, once I come back from my holiday. I’m just peed off that they think they can break the law and get away without paying their lowly paid staff, holiday pay! And there is no way I will back down without a fight if they refuse to play ball, although I understand your point and you are totally correct!

If I did push my case and they let me go, would I have any rights as I have only been there 6 months?

It just makes me so angry, there was a young guy who worked 40 hours + since the place opened and he has recently left and I know there is no way they would have given him his accrued holiday pay in with his last wage. I told him to make sure he asked for it and that he is legally entitled to it, but he is so nice, I don’t think he will.

getmore4less

If I did push my case and they let me go, would I have any rights as I have only been there 6 months?

You are protected if the dismisal is because you exercised a statutory right

Proving that will be hard without any evidence but they may be daft enough to do something that gives you the proof.

SInce you are planning to leave I would start a paper trail with a letter to the people that pay you/accountants.

You will need some evidence of the hours worked and nothing on pay slips that says/indicates holiday pay.

One other thing did anyone work for the previous owners, there could be continuity of employment forthose that did.

19lottie82

getmore4less wrote: »

If I did push my case and they let me go, would I have any rights as I have only been there 6 months?

You are protected if the dismisal is because you exercised a statutory right

Proving that will be hard without any evidence but they may be daft enough to do something that gives you the proof.

SInce you are planning to leave I would start a paper trail with a letter to the people that pay you/accountants.

You will need some evidence of the hours worked and nothing on pay slips that says/indicates holiday pay.

One other thing did anyone work for the previous owners, there could be continuity of employment forthose that did.

Great, thanks for the advice. I will send them a letter (by recorded delivery?) asking them to confirm their stance on my holiday pay.

No, it's all been new staff since the pub was taken over.

Naf

getmore4less wrote: »

If I did push my case and they let me go, would I have any rights as I have only been there 6 months?

You are protected if the dismisal is because you exercised a statutory right

Proving that will be hard without any evidence but they may be daft enough to do something that gives you the proof.

SInce you are planning to leave I would start a paper trail with a letter to the people that pay you/accountants.

You will need some evidence of the hours worked and nothing on pay slips that says/indicates holiday pay.

One other thing did anyone work for the previous owners, there could be continuity of employment forthose that did.

Ensure you have every single payslip since the day you started, and ensure you also get your final one when you leave.

In your letter request a copy of your terms of employment, and as opposed to asking directly what their stance on holiday pay is, ask what dates their holiday year runs between (some employers run January to January, some run alongside the tax year; it can vary a lot). This way you're not opening yourself up to making it obvious you want to kick up a fuss over what you've heard, but still getting the info you need. You already know what their stance is; it's the legal minimum entitlement (check http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/Timeoffandholidays/DG_184563 to determine it exactly; your terms of employment will be key to getting this right) so you don't need to ask if they abide by this; start from the standpoint that of course they do, and work backwards if necessary.
They're legally obliged to provide you with a copy of your terms (should have automatically within your first 2 months; see http://www.yourjobrights.co.uk/contract.htm and scroll down to "Written Statement of Employment Terms") and in there it'll set out your holiday entitlement. Use this and what they say about the holiday year (if this isn't already in the terms too) and just go ahead and write a letter booking the holidays just as you'd expect to.
Also worth checking is the holiday year; because if their holiday year runs Jan-Jan you'll have accrued hols in December that you're entitled to be paid for and can chase up, if it's through the tax year then you'll have even more to chase up.

SarEl

Naf wrote: »

It is for casual workers; so called 'Zero Hour' Contracts. There's no obligation for either party to offer or work any hours, so you just get your holidays worked right into your hourly rate

Ermm. No you don't. It's been illegal to practice "rolled up holiday pay" since the European Court outlawed it in 2004! The correct way to pay holiday is separately and averaged over a 12 week work period. It may then be paid over, or "banked" for when a worker actually wants to take holiday. But it is entirely unlawful to roll up holiday pay into the hourly rate for a long time.

Naf

SarEl wrote: »

Ermm. No you don't. It's been illegal to practice "rolled up holiday pay" since the European Court outlawed it in 2004! The correct way to pay holiday is separately and averaged over a 12 week work period. It may then be paid over, or "banked" for when a worker actually wants to take holiday. But it is entirely unlawful to roll up holiday pay into the hourly rate for a long time.

Evidently has changed since I was paid that way. Definitely doesnt feel like that long ago, but I guess it must be. Either way, we've now ascertained it doesn't apply to OP's situation. But I stand corrected.

Savvy_Sue

Naf wrote: »

ask what dates their holiday year runs between (some employers run January to January, some run alongside the tax year; it can vary a lot).

and some run from some other date, and some don't have a standard holiday year, but it runs from each worker's first day of employment.

In this case, as the pub opened 'under new management' with all new staff, it could be that the holiday year started at that point, and will always run from that point.

If you don't get givein your written statement, then certain minimum terms apply. Paid holiday included. I think in that case that the 'default' is that your holiday year starts on the day you did.

getmore4less

SarEl wrote: »

Ermm. No you don't. It's been illegal to practice "rolled up holiday pay" since the European Court outlawed it in 2004! The correct way to pay holiday is separately and averaged over a 12 week work period. It may then be paid over, or "banked" for when a worker actually wants to take holiday. But it is entirely unlawful to roll up holiday pay into the hourly rate for a long time.

NHS are happy to pay holiday on a PAYG basis monthly.

In the trust my OH works it is itemsized as WTD pay on the pay slip.

Savvy_Sue

As I understand it, it's OK to pay holiday pay without holidays being actually taken, as long as it is shown as a separate item on the payslip.

What you can't do is say "your rate of pay is £7 ph" and then turn round and say "you don't get paid holidays because it's included in your hourly rate.

We employ some bank staff, and every quarter we pay 12.07% of what they have earned in the previous 3 months. But it is listed as holiday pay. It would be simpler to pay them a higher hourly rate, but by calculating and paying quarterly, we hope it is kept clear.

getmore4less

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

As I understand it, it's OK to pay holiday pay without holidays being actually taken, as long as it is shown as a separate item on the payslip.

What you can't do is say "your rate of pay is £7 ph" and then turn round and say "you don't get paid holidays because it's included in your hourly rate.

We employ some bank staff, and every quarter we pay 12.07% of what they have earned in the previous 3 months. But it is listed as holiday pay. It would be simpler to pay them a higher hourly rate, but by calculating and paying quarterly, we hope it is kept clear.

This is potentialy a problem, I think (you as an employer) have to be able to show that the worker would have take 5.6weeks holiday as a minimum.

So a part time, zero hours or bank that does not work every week and has at least 5.6 weeks in a year where they dont work you are ok.

BUT if they(employee) try to work most weeks you(as an employer) could come unstuck even if identified as holiday on the payslip if you cannot prove 5.6 weeks off.
BUt saying that the employees want the money so won't complain untill someone does they can carry on/.

My guess is the HR in NHS are not on top of this( I need to check I think we might be short on pay %)