Help with DVLA road tax / SORN rules please!

sjaypink

Hi,

Asking for a friend who is possibly in a spot of bother .
I wonder if there are any knowledgable people here re. DVLA tax / SORN rules?


A few questions :


What constitutes a 'public road' for the purposes of a vehicle needing to be taxed?

Do you have to SORN vehicles which you hold as a 'trader' (logbook not in your personal name)?

Where -address- can you SORN a vehicle to (any off road area you have permission to use, or must it be a private area attached to a dwelling)?

What are the different routes/ punishments (for want of a better word) for the different offences of failing to declare a SORN (and the vehicle being off road), and having an untaxed vehicle on a public road?

If DVLA have clamped a car, what are the options for releasing it (or the costs if you just let them tow it)?

Finally, why do some untaxed cars get police or local authority 'orange stickers', whilst others get the DVLAs personal attention ?


Many thanks in advance!

hartcjhart

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/UntaxedVehicle/index.htm

sjaypink

hartcjhart wrote: »

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/UntaxedVehicle/index.htm

Thanks, I have searched the net but the directgov and other similar sites info is rather basic and doesn't fit with the specific circumstances in this matter.
The original questions still pretty much remain unanswered from such 'user friendly' easy-read generalisations, and so I was hoping there might be some legislation geeks about
Advice of a conflicting nature has been given from DVLA reps regards the definition of 'off-road'. To me, it means any land 'off the road', which the owner has use of (it is within the same postcode) however one DVLA person said it only applies to the land directly attached to the dwelling owned or rented by the keeper. I can't seem to clarify this anywhere?

asbokid

sjaypink wrote: »

Thanks, I have searched the net but the directgov and other similar sites info is rather basic and doesn't fit with the specific circumstances in this matter.

The original questions still pretty much remain unanswered from such 'user friendly' easy-read generalisations, and so I was hoping there might be some legislation geeks about

Advice of a conflicting nature has been given from DVLA reps regards the definition of 'off-road'. To me, it means any land 'off the road', which the owner has use of (it is within the same postcode) however one DVLA person said it only applies to the land directly attached to the dwelling owned or rented by the keeper. I can't seem to clarify this anywhere?

Typical disinformation from a mind-controlled DVLA operative, trained to pervert and misinterpret the law for revenue purposes...

According to the Interpretation prelude to the Statutory Instrument: The Road Vehicles (Statutory Off-Road Notification) Regulations 1997 (as amended by 1998 Regs..)

“the required declaration” means a declaration in writing made to the Secretary of State by a person surrendering a vehicle licence or the keeper of a vehicle to the effect that (except for use under a trade licence) he does not for the time being intend to use or keep the vehicle on a public road and will not do so without first taking out a vehicle licence (or if appropriate a nil licence) for the vehicle;

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1997/3025/made

sjaypink

asbokid wrote: »

Typical disinformation from a mind-controlled DVLA operative, trained to pervert and misinterpret the law for revenue purposes...

According to the Interpretation prelude to the Statutory Instrument: The Road Vehicles (Statutory Off-Road Notification) Regulations 1997 (as amended by 1998 Regs..)

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1997/3025/made

Thank you very much asbokid, this is the sort of link I was hoping for Bedtime reading

Think I will save that legislation.gov to my favourites, didn't know such a thing existed :A

asbokid

To add to that.. there is more to the definition of "public road" than DVLA would have us believe..

First note the pointlessly woolly definition of "road" at direct.gov.uk [1]

However, from CAG[2], we learn:

1) For the purposes of VED and SORN, the definition of a public highway is "a road maintained at public expense"; this is very different from the definition for the Road Traffic Act.

2) Normally, the pavement and verges are regarded as part of the highway. If you contact the highway authority for the road in question (usually the County Council), they can tell the extent of the public highway.

There is a case reported by a consumer on CAG, who left his SORNed vehicle on wasteland, and returned to find it had been clamped for having no road tax.

In the end, the motorist paid up, not because he was in the wrong, but simply because he was sick of the hassle from the gangsters at DVLA [3]

It is astonishing how the DVLA is deliberately twisting the intentions of Parliament for SORN, and our understanding of the law:

"Only land directly attached to the dwelling owned or rented by the keeper" (DVLA)

"References to ‘road’..generally include footpaths, bridleways and cycle tracks, and many roadways and driveways on private land (including many car parks)" (direct.gov.uk)

"For the purposes of VED and SORN, the definition of a public highway is 'a road maintained at public expense' " (independent lawyer)

[1] http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_069869

[2] http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?115131

[3] http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?211685-Definition-of-Public-Highway-for-SORN

Wig

sjaypink wrote: »

Hi,

Asking for a friend who is possibly in a spot of bother .
I wonder if there are any knowledgable people here re. DVLA tax / SORN rules?


A few questions :

Sorry for late reply........

What constitutes a 'public road' for the purposes of a vehicle needing to be taxed?
"a public road" = "a road maintained at public expense"
However, if the vehicle has no tax and no SORN then it can still be immobilised and removed from anywhere that is not:
(a)any place which is within the curtilage of, or in the vicinity of, a dwelling-house, mobile home or houseboat and which is normally enjoyed with it, or
(b)any place which is within the curtilage of, or in the vicinity of, a building consisting entirely (apart from common parts) of two or more dwellings and which is normally enjoyed only by the occupiers of one or more of those dwellings.”

And if it was SORN then the SORN conditions must not at any time have been breached - because breaching the conditions automatically makes the SORN void.


Do you have to SORN vehicles which you hold as a 'trader' (logbook not in your personal name)?
As far as I know, no it wouldn't need to be as long as it was being kept at business premises.

Where -address- can you SORN a vehicle to (any off road area you have permission to use, or must it be a private area attached to a dwelling)?
It can be ANYWHERE that is not "a public road" However, if it is a "public place" then it must have MOT & Insurance....If it has no insurance it cannot be impounded by police unless it was seen being driven.

What are the different routes/ punishments (for want of a better word) for the different offences of failing to declare a SORN (and the vehicle being off road), and having an untaxed vehicle on a public road?
The first one:
a vehicle which not SORN and kept "off road" and I assume untaxed???

• 1. The vehicle can be clamped and a clamping removal fee charged
• 2. The vehicle can be towed away if the clamping fee is not paid
• 3. The vehicle can be towed immediately but only the clamping removal fee may be charged in the first 24 hours, after that the towing fee may be charged aswell.
• Automatic £80 penalty for failing to licence/SORN issued by letter. Only applies if it continues to fail to be taxed or SORN by the end of the month -following the month of expiry- from the beginning of that month.
• If there is also no insurance £100 automatic fine issued by letter.
• 1, 2, & 3 only apply if it is not in a place (a) & (b) as defined above in regards to a curtillage of a dwelling.

The second one:
having an untaxed vehicle on a public road?

• The vehicle can be clamped and a clamping removal fee charged
• The vehicle can be towed away if the clamping fee is not paid
• The vehicle can be towed immediately but only the clamping removal fee may be charged in the first 24 hours, after that the towing fee may be charged aswell.
• Automatic £80 penalty for failing to licence/SORN issued by letter. Only applies if it continues to fail to be taxed or SORN by the end of the month -following the month of expiry- from the beginning of the month.
• If seen....You will be asked to back pay the road tax for the missing period.
• If there is also no insurance £100 automatic fine issued by letter.
• If seen.....If there is no insurance RK can be charged with 'having no insurance'
• If seen....."Failing to display" - fixed penalty £60 ?? maybe more £100?
• If it was SORN and found on a road then there will also be a fine of something like 3x the annual VED rate
• Don't know if there is any others.
• A vehicle may be legally used within the 1st 5 working days of the month without tax as long as the tax was applied for online before expiry

If DVLA have clamped a car, what are the options for releasing it (or the costs if you just let them tow it)?
See above. You can also... as I understand, refuse to pay.... they will then crush it and you get the other charges and fines as listed above not relating to the towing/clamp removal. If it was SORN and found on a road then there will also be a fine of something like 3x the annual VED rate


Finally, why do some untaxed cars get police or local authority 'orange stickers', whilst others get the DVLAs personal attention ?
Depends who finds it, but the police or Local Authority will always inform the DVLA that it was seen and then you get the DVLA attention later on as a surprise.

Many thanks in advance!
No problem

sjaypink

Wig wrote: »

Sorry for late reply........

Very comprehensive. Thank you very much.

As it happens, for anyone searching similar and finding this thread at a later date, this is what happened-

• Untaxed 'traders' car on public road was clamped. New tax disc bought & £100 release fee paid.
• Untaxed & unsorn 'private' car off the road -communal carpark- was clamped. New tax disc bought & £100 release fee paid.
• Untaxed & unsorn 'traders' car off the road -communal carpark- was ignored (so far).
• Untaxed & unsorn 'private' car off the road (and on land directly attached to a dwelling) was ignored (so far).

All vehicles insured and MOTd.
No doubt further fines will be received through the post at a later date though.

Expensive lesson learned I think
Thanks for all the replies.

Wig

You may be offered £40 early payment discount for the £80 fines. You could choose to say "I did SORN it, didn't you get my letter?" - if that is what happened..... and tell them "see you in court" for the late licence fines (£80), they rarely take anyone to court for them, they usually pass it on to a debt collector (who you can ignore) and if you do find yourself in court just use the defense "I did comply with all that was required of me, I sent a SORN declaration to DVLA, as soon as I sent it I complied with the law, as stated in the Interpretations Act on posting documents to the secretary of state.

If you need help with that there are numerous threads here about it.

You can't get out of the back pay of tax for the missing period for car which was found on the road.
Come back here if they try to get money for the missing periods for the cars which were off road.