New kitchen; how to determine quality before going?

SockToy

Is there a good fitters discussion forum out there? 30 mins in a showroom doesn't really let us know what a kitchen is like to live with, and I'm now totally used to relying on the Internet for advice

We're looking for a fairly major rebuild, opening our kitchen up into a handleless german style, and for the amount of money it's going to cost getting it right, and getting good quality / value is important

Right now considering mereway, alno, pronorm ... But really, no idea if the quality hype is real or significant compared to, say, well fitted howdens with fancy doors, or how they compare to one another...

It'll be our kitchen in our only home for years, central to the living area, abd a focal point for entertaining as well as just providing sustenance


Halp?

CKdesigner

Hi Socktoy

I am sure you will find plenty of threads on here about kitchens.

You have said you want a German handless kitchen, sorry if I'm pointing out the obvious but Mereway is not German! If you want German then have German, I wouldn't consider the Mereway handless range. Mereway are good kitchens but I feel their handless system is still behind decent German systems. And likewise Howdens and the like forget they are light years behind decent German kitchens.

We do Schueller as our 'everyday' German range and I believe you can't beat it for quality and value, from any other German brand.

Looking for German kitchen brands can quite often be a bit of a nightmare as there are so many to choose from and they all look very similar. You do need to be a bit careful as many of them you are paying for the badge, I think this is wrong as I believe you should invest in quality not the badge.

Good luck in your search.

CK

Steve_the_fitter

A good kitchen fitters forum is https://www.kitchenfittersforum.co.uk. Lots of decent kitchen fitters on there offering good advice

SockToy wrote: »

Is there a good fitters discussion forum out there? 30 mins in a showroom doesn't really let us know what a itchen is like to live with, and I'm now totally used to relying on the Internet for advice

We're looking for a fairly major rebuild, opening our kitchen up into a handleless german style, and for the amount of money it's going to cost getting it right, and getting good quality / value is important

Right now considering mereway, alno, pronorm ... But really, no idea if the quality hype is real or significant compared to, say, well fitted howdens with fancy doors, or how they compare to one another...

It'll be our kitchen in our only home for years, central to the living area, abd a focal point for entertaining as well as just providing sustenance


Halp?

SockToy

CKdesigner wrote: »

Hi Socktoy

I am sure you will find plenty of threads on here about kitchens.

You have said you want a German handless kitchen, sorry if I'm pointing out the obvious but Mereway is not German! If you want German then have German, I wouldn't consider the Mereway handless range. Mereway are good kitchens but I feel their handless system is still behind decent German systems. And likewise Howdens and the like forget they are light years behind decent German kitchens.

We do Schueller as our 'everyday' German range and I believe you can't beat it for quality and value, from any other German brand.

Looking for German kitchen brands can quite often be a bit of a nightmare as there are so many to choose from and they all look very similar. You do need to be a bit careful as many of them you are paying for the badge, I think this is wrong as I believe you should invest in quality not the badge.

Good luck in your search.

CK

Can you provide some guidance as to what the quality differentiators are? I.e. why mereway is worse, or what to look out for in a pronorm vs. alno vs. schueller kitchen? Im hoping to get away from marketing and into the actual build quality and features that are really worth having - Im more than happy to go Schueller, or any other brand, if I understand /why/ its the right choice ;-p

Thanks

Matt

CKdesigner

Hi Socktoy

Now you're asking!

Mereway is about as good as it gets from a mass produced English kitchen manufacturer but if you put the Mereway factory into Germany it would be regarded as a very small manufacturer. German kitchen manufacturing is years ahead of English, the Germans just know how to make excellent quality on a huge scale. For instance Schueller produce 350 kitchens a day! (I think Mereway no more than 30) Schueller have a fleet of over 100 delivery trucks, that they own not leased, all with 2 men crews. They deliver exactly the time they say they are going to to our warehouse and the delivery drivers actively look for any damage as they unload, if they find any then they report it back to the factory. I then receive an order confirmation for the replacement unit probably before the truck leaves the warehouse.

With regard to the differences of quality and unit construction between Alno, Pronorm and Schueller. In truth probably not a lot! I think they all use Blum drawer boxes, hinges and other mechanisms, all use the best grade of 16mm MFC carcasses (Melamine Faced Chipboard) with glue and dowel construction. I think the differences are more in the finances, philosophies, ownerships and marketing strategies of these companies. I don't think it is any secret that Alno is in serious trouble financially and the only reason why its still going is that the local government where the factory is located is underpinning it. Pronorm used to be a sister company to Poggenpohl and was mostly sold by Poggenpohl dealers to customers that wanted a Poggenpohl kitchen but not pay the premium for the name, now Pronorm has been sold by the parent company, I think it will need to find its own way and not be towed along by Poggenpohl.

The other half and I think Schueller fits in perfectly with our business because it has always been and still is a family run business, even though they are the 4th largest producer of kitchens in Europe they still do all that they can to help us and put into action our suggestions if at all possible. Overall the other half and I think no other German brand offers better value for money, but then I would say that wouldn't I! LOL.

Having said all that Socktoy, at this end of the kitchen market, the best piece of advice I can offer you is that it is more important to choose the right kitchen designer / independent kitchen specialist than worry which German make of kitchen they deal with. I always say that customers don't get the other half and I to do their new kitchen project because we do Schueller or a particular make of kitchen, they come to us because they feel comfortable that we we will do a good job for them and treat their new kitchen as if it were our own. It all comes down to trust.

Hopefully this helps you a bit more.

Good luck

CK

aboard_epsilon

MFC ..i would have thought if you wanted quality it would be melamine faced marine ply ..

I don't know nothing about kitchens ...but I hate chipboard...even orientatated strand board is better.

and would hate the thought of paying out thousands for something made of that.

all the best.markj

ryder72

aboard_epsilon- 'melamine faced marine ply'. Yes it would perhaps make a better and more durable kitchen. But it may also be an overengineered kitchen and cost more proportionally without necessary adding anything meaningfully to the durability of the kitchen.

socktoy - I am not going to repeat what CKDesigner has already said. Almost all German kitchens are better than almost all British made kitchens. Find a manufactuer that offers a door style that you like with the design and functional elements that you are after. Then satisfy yourself that the suppliers you select to design your kitchen are ones you can trust to provide you with a level of service that you are happy with at a price within your budget. Finally work with them to get the design you want.

Finally - I dont necessarily agree that brands add no value. A brand carries certain values and a degree of assurance with regards to standards, quality,status etc. Of course one pays for this and its only for you to decide what the brands worth to you (after all if brands meant nothing no one would buy an Audi; we'd all buy Skoda's).

majjie

Hi SockToy,

Am sitting here trying to get back into work mode ... and allowed myself to get distracted by your post.

I design kitchens but I don't sell them ... so I have no axe to grind ... and I've never been able to get to the bottom of why some people think German kitchens are better than UK made ones.

It all seems to boil down to - they're more efficient at deliveries!

If I was buying a kitchen for myself, I'd go to a UK supplier that buys in (or makes) good quality carcasses. A good quality carcasse, in my opinion, would be: made from 18mm MFC - with ABS edging - units that can be made to measure - with a choice of internal fittings. And I'd want a whole range of different doors to choose from - from a number of different manufacturers. It wouldn't matter to me that they don't make hundreds of kitchens a day - in fact I'd regard that as an advantage!

Ideally, I'd go for made to measure doors too ... but that would be more likely to bump the price up.

German kitchens used to be much better quality than UK ones - about fifteen years ago! These days I don't believe there's much difference. And - as CKdesigner said - it's the quality of the design and the supplier (how much they care about your kitchen) that makes the biggest difference to the service you get and the quality of the final product.

Majjie

Regrad

majjie wrote: »

Hi SockToy,

Am sitting here trying to get back into work mode ... and allowed myself to get distracted by your post.

I design kitchens but I don't sell them ... so I have no axe to grind ... and I've never been able to get to the bottom of why some people think German kitchens are better than UK made ones.

It all seems to boil down to - they're more efficient at deliveries!

If I was buying a kitchen for myself, I'd go to a UK supplier that buys in (or makes) good quality carcasses. A good quality carcasse, in my opinion, would be: made from 18mm MFC - with ABS edging - units that can be made to measure - with a choice of internal fittings. And I'd want a whole range of different doors to choose from - from a number of different manufacturers. It wouldn't matter to me that they don't make hundreds of kitchens a day - in fact I'd regard that as an advantage!

Ideally, I'd go for made to measure doors too ... but that would be more likely to bump the price up.

German kitchens used to be much better quality than UK ones - about fifteen years ago! These days I don't believe there's much difference. And - as CKdesigner said - it's the quality of the design and the supplier (how much they care about your kitchen) that makes the biggest difference to the service you get and the quality of the final product.

Majjie

This is not intended to be a hijack Socktoy, but a request for something more definitive and tangible from the kitchen experts...

The problem is, it's easier to look for a big German name, most consumers don't know where to look regarding UK brands (apart from the obvious ones), hence some may seek your consultancy or go on these forums. You're in the industry, you know where to look.

One advice always preached is to go to independants because they're not brand-biased. Do I go into the store, and say the following:
1. I want "18mm MFC - with ABS edging"
2. I want 19mm doors
3. Whats the price? And how do I know this is relatively good value for money compared to competitors within the same range of quality?

I think the problem is that it's dead easy to go to Ikea/Homebase etc. and say, they're ok'ish quality AND they're cheap, it's acceptable. But when you start paying for anything £7000 up (cabinets and doors only), how do you know what's reasonable and when you're getting ripped off?

I'm in this pickle myself. I'm about to purchased a property that requires rennovation. I'm more than happy to buy from independants, but I don't know what to look for when I'm there. For example, I randomly went into a local store the other way and they were selling kitchens from this company, Nova Cucina (google it). They don't seem to have ANY presence in the UK but the carcasses seem to be good, the doors were 19mm (I think) and the price was around £6000 for carcasses and doors (smallish 3mx3m kitchen).

I have some questions for all the kitchen experts:

1. Who are the UK door manufacturers I should be looking out for?
2. What are italian kitchens like? I've seen the "looks good, flakey quality" comment thrown around a lot.
3. What are acrylic doors like? They seem very good. Fad?
4. Schueller? How much are they?
5. If uk manufacturers are same as Germans, who are the UK equivalents? ie. Poggen Pohl-> UK, Leicht -> UK, Pronorm->UK?

I know it's quite difficult, but it'll be a hell of a lot easier if we had a price point to latch on to. Such as the cost of a single cabinet for each manufacturer and the tangible quality associated. Now that would be something useful to view in a table!! That way, we could make choices based on our own personal criterias and come to some sort of basic conclusion before we start hitting showrooms, like how we purchase cars.

majjie

Sorry Regrad - but life just isn't that simple. You can't just compare the price of one unit, from different suppliers, because there are too many variables.

It's much more expensive to have a wide choice of unit sizes (and much better for your kitchen design) than to have a very limited choice of sizes. So, a 500 drawer pack from a supplier that will only do a 500 drawer pack - is going to be cheaper than from a supplier that also offers 300, 400 and 600 drawer packs - even if the quality is identical.

As for knowing when you're being ripped off. It all depends what you mean by that. A high street kitchen showroom that has beautiful displays and keeps them up-to-date, has showroom staff and good designers, has staff to oversee the fitting and project manage your job, believes in good customer service, looks after their fitters and belongs to an insurance scheme which guarantees your deposit ... will have much higher overheads and, therefore, retail prices, than a one man band in a back street industrial unit, selling the same make of kitchens and fitting them himself. They're not necessarily ripping you off though.

You can certainly go into a showroom and ask what their carcasse spec is ... but actually the German kitchens are the ones that are least likely to tell you. They tend to use thinner MFC than UK kitchens ... but it's still good quality. Sometimes I think people tend to get too hung up on the technical details.

You need to find a designer/supplier/fitter that you trust - whether that's encompassed in one person or whether it's three different people ... and then use his/her/their experience to help you choose a kitchen. You could buy very good quality kitchen units and still end up with a naff kitchen - if the design and fitting are poor.

In answer to your specific questions:

• There are loads of UK door manufacturers/distributors that sell to independent showrooms: Mereway, Burbidge, Prentice, Multiwood, Marpatt, Second Nature, JJO, BA Components, Crystal Doors ... to name but a few. There are also trade names within those suppliers, such as Zurfiz and Bella from BA Components ... Colonial from JJO ... and Wentworth, English Revival and Cucina Colore from Mereway.
• I don't have any personal experience of Italian kitchens. I love the look of Aster Cucine ... but I've never investigated them in any detail (don't know Nova Cucina). I haven't heard the comment "looks good, flakey quality" thrown around. I suspect it comes in the same category as "all german kitchens are better than all UK kitchens" ... i.e it's a biased (and historical) opinion, rather than being a current, evidence based fact.
• solid acrylic doors are very good - but they're also very expensive - and they can get scratched (although they're repairable). For a gloss door, I'd probably favour a good painted finish ... or a high gloss laminate (depending on budget).
• the best way to find out how much a Scheuller kitchen is - is to get a quote
• I didn't say that UK manufacturers were the same as German ones. There aren't necessarily direct equivalents, although I guess you could say that Smallbone is of equivalent fame to Poggenpohl. In the case of the big names, you're paying for their marketing - as well as good showrooms, staff etc.

At the lower end of the UK market, things get more complicated by the fact that we have both rigid carcasses and flat pack kitchens. And - once again - there used to be a big difference in quality between the two, but that's no longer the case. I'd go for a flat pack Crown Imperial or Colonial kitchen any day, rather than a rigid Howdens one - simply because of the much wider choice of unit sizes. And some manufacturers like Omega plc do both sorts. Their Omega and Chippendale kitchens are flat packs; their Sheraton and Charles Rennie Mackintosh (the latter of which confusingly includes high gloss and handleless styles) are rigid.

Sorry - I've written reams on the subject over the years! ... but I realise this may not be a big help ...

Majjie