Unauthorised Cash Withdraw Abroad

lisyloo

regardless of the stupidity of leaving the cards in a drawer in a hotel room

Like many others I believe they have a get out if you are negligent.
But the onus of proof is on them.

The problem the OP is going to have here is one of proving that the transactions were fraudulent.

The OP doesn't have to prove this.
The bank would have to prove it isn't.

If a PIN has been used how did those withdrawing know it?

Laptop left on a train.
Numbers sold in Indian call center.
PIN Number recorded somehow when the card was used legitimately.
Who knows, but the OP does not need to prove this.

I suspect it even the FOS may struggle to decide the banks in question should be held liable unless clear evidence of theft exists.

I think the onus of proof is the other way round.

opinions4u

lisyloo wrote: »

Like many others I believe they have a get out if you are negligent.
But the onus of proof is on them.

Not if the money gained fraudulently is taken from a debit balance (e.g. an overdraft or credit card debt). This takes the matter away from terms and conditions and Lending Code and puts it firmly in to the Consumer Credit Act. The bank cannot enforce such debts.

The OP doesn't have to prove this.
The bank would have to prove it isn't.
I think the onus of proof is the other way round.

I agree. But the OP should be prepared for a straight bat response telling him to get lost (in a polite and apologetic way).

I wish I could find the link I need to back this up now ... http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/credit-and-loans/article.html?in_article_id=401706&in_page_id=9 and it supports your post nicely (although I'm surprised the cardholder had to pay the £50).

lisyloo

But the OP should be prepared for a straight bat response telling him to get lost (in a polite and apologetic way).

I totally agree with you on that and forewarned is forearmed.

meer53

I work in the fraud department of a bank and have also had fraud on my credit cards. My pin numbers were in a diary, in code, in a sideboard drawer, my cards were in my handbag, which was stolen when i was burgled (along with the contents of my house and my brand new car !) Three of my cards were used to withdraw cash from a local ATM, there were PIN attempts on other cards (no cash withdrawn) which enabled them to work out my PIN numbers from the codes, and to use my cards successfully. Two banks refunded me in full, but i was held liable £50 by the bank i work for !! Sods law !
A bank can prove that a counterfeit card hasn't been used as they can tell whether the chip has been read by the ATM, and if it has, then the card and PIN have to have both been available. The OP must have left both the PIN and the cards in the hotel room drawer, the banks will stress this point and point to their terms and conditions where it discusses unauthorised withdrawals. If your PIN and card are available then you are negligent.
I think the OP should be breathing a sigh of relief that they were credit cards and not debit cards ! If these had been credit funds then they would have been fully liable !

f1rsttimebuyer_2

Thanks for all replies. Just to confirm, I didn't leave my pin with the card. My pin is the same on my 3 CCs and my 1 debit card, so I have no need to write them down. My cards were left in a travel wallet in a draw, they were not left on show. There was no safe in the room so I carried phone and debit card with me at all times. Passport, plane tickets and credit cards were "hidden" in my travel wallet in draw.

Although i was aware i needed to keep these items hidden, I guess I was naive to think that cleaners wouldn't rummage around through my possessions to find what they want. I also thought they would be useless to anyone as it wouldn't be possible for them to be used without pin.

I have no idea how they would know my PIN. I did guarantee room service on my CC at hotel reception, so maybe you could see me type my pin in on the hotel CCTV??

meer53

f1rsttimebuyer wrote: »

Thanks for all replies. Just to confirm, I didn't leave my pin with the card. My pin is the same on my 3 CCs and my 1 debit card, so I have no need to write them down. My cards were left in a travel wallet in a draw, they were not left on show. There was no safe in the room so I carried phone and debit card with me at all times. Passport, plane tickets and credit cards were "hidden" in my travel wallet in draw.

Although i was aware i needed to keep these items hidden, I guess I was naive to think that cleaners wouldn't rummage around through my possessions to find what they want. I also thought they would be useless to anyone as it wouldn't be possible for them to be used without pin.

I have no idea how they would know my PIN. I did guarantee room service on my CC at hotel reception, so maybe you could see me type my pin in on the hotel CCTV??

Maybe they did, but as you probably won't be held liable, it's not really worth worrying about now, just be ultra careful next time ! I'm sure you will !

chattychappy

meer53 wrote: »

A bank can prove that a counterfeit card hasn't been used as they can tell whether the chip has been read by the ATM, and if it has, then the card and PIN have to have both been available.

...
If your PIN and card are available then you are negligent.

Of course that's the principle the banks go for. If a PIN has been used, it must have be down to the cardholder. I can well understand why they would like to hold to this position.

But that can't be assumed - we all know about PDQ machines that have been compromised, cameras attached to devices etc. Indeed I was involved in a case where cameras spied on ATMs and people were later mugged. They generally reported the loss promptly and believed they were OK because nowhere was the PIN written down. In most cases money had been withdrawn within a couple of minutes of the mugging.

And as I keep banging on, it's GROSS negligence that the bank must prove (or prove fraud by the cardholder), not mere negligence.

re. the earlier posts: the Lending Code is a reflection of the CCA1974 and other relevant legislation, regulation and even tort law. A kind of industry best stab at a compliant model code for providers. It is not law in itself, though to the extent it is incorporated into T+Cs and is not inconsistent with law, then it's enforceable.