Property Bulls disgust me - selfish people

B_Blank

julieq wrote: »

Oh get real Blankie. You start a thread entitled "property bulls disgust me, selfish people" with a rather nasty attack on a whole group of people, and then throw a pompous hissy one when people come back at you and the terribly sensitive Geneer in similar terms. It's laughable really.

But since you're here, why not explain who is "championing" rental increases. They've been explained in supply and demand terms, but "bulls" don't cause or champion them. If you understand why they happen you have a chance of figuring out what is likely to happen to the housing market if we don't build more houses, which very many "bulls" have been advocating for years.

No I wont name names because then it becomes personal.

Maybe you should go and look up what personal means?

I speak in general terms, and never attack individuals with cruel and nasty comments.

julieq

Ah, OK, must have missed that at finishing school. It's wrong to be rude to individuals, but it's perfectly acceptable to call a whole group of people "SCUM"?

If you wanted to debate how supply and demand affects rents and therefore yield and therefore prices, there's a perfectly civilised thread on that subject. No, you decided you wanted to call a group of people "SCUM". And that's perfectly polite.

Specifically, Blankie, you're naive about markets and you're a screaming hypocrite. Neither of which are insults incidentally.

Graham_Devon

julieq wrote: »

Oh get real Blankie. You start a thread entitled "property bulls disgust me, selfish people" with a rather nasty attack on a whole group of people, and then throw a pompous hissy one when people come back at you and the terribly sensitive Geneer in similar terms. It's laughable really.

But since you're here, why not explain who is "championing" rental increases. They've been explained in supply and demand terms, but "bulls" don't cause or champion them. If you understand why they happen you have a chance of figuring out what is likely to happen to the housing market if we don't build more houses, which very many "bulls" have been advocating for years.

That may be so. But they also know it's nigh on impossible that it's going to happen. It's a very easy, slapdash comment in relation to all housing problems, which, yes, would solve many problems, but, in reality, simply will not happen. Everyone knows this.

Simply saying it over and over again, suggesting that more houses should be built, just glossses (sp) over the actual problem, and ends the argument / debate very conviniently.

Banning smoking will cut lung cancer. Banning drinking will cut liver disease and CKD. We can advocate it all we like. It aint gonna happen. Theres too much money involved, and too much money made from these products.

People can go round blindly stating the way to stop lung cancer is to ban smoking. It's true. It ends the argument. But it doesn't solve the issues at hand today. It just allows people to bury their heads in the sand, ignore the issues at hand, and tells us what we all knew anyway.

Telling everyone building more houses will sort out issues, is, quite honestly, blindingly obvious. But if people can't afford to buy houses, and builders therefore can't afford to build houses, it isn't going to happen.

julieq

Graham, nothing you advocate to reduce prices is likely to work either. The ONLY solution is to build more. Otherwise prices will rise, either for owner occupation or for rental. Because there are far more households forming than housing being created. The mathematics is inexorable.

And there are ways of making that happen which is to start doing things like not objecting to planning applications locally, and lobbying your MP. It's likely to be a lot more effective than sitting around in a group and hoping that if you all agree with each other that prices are going to go down they're going to go down. They won't.

B_Blank

julieq wrote: »

Graham, nothing you advocate to reduce prices is likely to work either. The ONLY solution is to build more. Otherwise prices will rise, either for owner occupation or for rental. Because there are far more households forming than housing being created. The mathematics is inexorable.

And there are ways of making that happen which is to start doing things like not objecting to planning applications locally, and lobbying your MP. It's likely to be a lot more effective than sitting around in a group and hoping that if you all agree with each other that prices are going to go down they're going to go down. They won't.

Prove there are more households forming.

Immigration is being curtailed. Birth rates are not very high. The population is aging and death rates will start to pick up. One parent families hasnt increased for the last 20 years.

Stop picking numbers and "facts" out of thin air. Just because you bulls say these things so often doesnt make them true, its like the blind leading the blind.

Boom, 1-0 to Mr Blank.

Graham_Devon

julieq wrote: »

Graham, nothing you advocate to reduce prices is likely to work either.

Actually, it already has.

The biggest one I advocate - responsible lending. Funnily enough the factor that the property optimists, or should I simply say, VIs, have the biggest issues with.

julieq wrote: »

It's likely to be a lot more effective than sitting around in a group and hoping that if you all agree with each other that prices are going to go down they're going to go down. They won't.

They have.

B_Blank

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Actually, it already has.

The biggest one I advocate - responsible lending. Funnily enough the factor that the property optimists, or should I simply say, VIs, have the biggest issues with.



They have.

Nice post Graham. 2-0 I think :beer:

julieq

Graham_Devon wrote: »

Actually, it already has.

The biggest one I advocate - responsible lending. Funnily enough the factor that the property optimists, or should I simply say, VIs, have the biggest issues with.



They have.

Graham, we HAVE responsible lending in your terms. Prices are not falling. And what "responsible lending" is resulting in is precisely what blankie was complaining in such charming terms about at the start of the thread, which is excluding people from ownership, pushing them into rental, pushing rent up, and favouring rented property as an investment opportunity.

I honestly don't know why this is so difficult to understand. From ONS figures, we need 250000 new homes annually to keep up with household creation rates. We peaked at something around 200000 during the boom, and last year only 100000. We have the lowest building rates in Europe. Where are people supposed to live if there aren't enough homes for them to live in?

Denying this is happening is ridiculous. The proof is precisely the event which prompted blankies little rant, which is that rents are rising very significantly. As buyers are removed from owner occupation, they compete for rented property. Rents rise, prices are stagnant nominally, yields rise, therefore investors will start to compete for property to rent. There isn't anything more complicated to it than that.

It's not hypothetical, it is actually happening, demonstrably happening. 4ish% on rent when there is no VAT on rental and a dysfunctional economy is an enormous hike. And the irony it is it the measures YOU are advocating that lead directly to that outcome, where allowing people to borrow to buy would allow very many - not all - into the market where they'd pay far less for housing over their lifetimes.

Ah well. You're not going to listen are you? Might as well give up and go to bed. The proof of the pudding will be in a years time when we look back.

IveSeenTheLight

B_Blank wrote: »

Prove there are more households forming.

Immigration is being curtailed. Birth rates are not very high. The population is aging and death rates will start to pick up. One parent families hasnt increased for the last 20 years.

Here's a link that shows net migration while slightly lowered is still significant.
It also shows natural change which is increasing.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=950

B_Blank wrote: »

Stop picking numbers and "facts" out of thin air. Just because you bulls say these things so often doesnt make them true, its like the blind leading the blind.

Boom, 1-0 to Mr Blank.

This link also provides detail showing net migration is increasing
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_population/provisional-estimates-longterm-international-migration.xls

Or this one
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/popnr0610.pdf

It's not facts picked out of the air, it's just plain facts.

Seems your goal was an own one

Herbie_Hancock_I_wish

You really do read a load of old tosh on this board, but it makes me laugh . A buddy of mine lives in a small terrace house not to far from London . I certainly mean small . Valued around 1994 at a little bit over £40k . So back to fundalmentals . A 3.5 times salary would have amounted to a joint incme of of less than £12k . At the peak , I am told one sold for £200k . Not sure about that but I do know that a mate of mine paid £170k , split up with his partner so had a big deposit. So working on the old controlled system , 3.5 of lending , assuming no deposit would reflect a joint income of a touch under £50k .

So don`t go on about all this rubbish of supply and demand . Totally agree that the population has risen a bit but not to the extent of pushing prices up to this amount . I know for a fact there was a load of lie to buy , 125% of the house value as a loan . Our friends at Northern Basket Case .

IMH opinion , inflation is far higher than quoted , my wife and I have had our pensions raided by Brown . Annuities have crashed . What would have been a decent pension is smashed . 0.5% rates, a massive cry for help . The UK has driven itself into a hole . Hey , friends in Spain and Ireland are telling me what is really going on , not very pretty . To me , the IR is nothing less than keeping the pack of cards from a major collapse .

Even at the dumb prices I could buy a couple of flats , mortgage free . Great , once again depriving folk that wish their own place . Not a big axe to grind as I don`t have a mortgage .

Why would anyone, in this climate , think prices will keep rising ? Deluded at best . The great dream , well the final days of Thatch has taken to it`s final conclustion , by Nu Labour is now finished . Now we have the toffs in charge with Cleggy boy.

Methinks that some of these pumped up bulls are in fact trying to reassure themselves .