Building regulation amendments re chimney projections

hellokitty70

Hello

We have just been handed a section 20 notice by our management agent in relation to ensuring the stability of a chimney breast in our building.

We live in a Victorian house that was coverted into two flats, some 20 years ago. My flat was thoroughly modernised in 2003/2004 by the current freeholder and overseen by the same managing agent.
I have questioned the fact that building regulations would have been in force at that time and why was the work not completed then. They have countered this saying regulations at that time did not cover chimney projections, however I am sceptical.
Could anyone please assist with what and how the building regulations re chimneys have changed since 2002 - 2004?

Also re the section 20 notice, could this be withdrawn by the managing agent if they agree to just leave the existing chimney support in place, or will this always remain on our records if we wish to sell at a later date?

Many thanks for any advise you can shed.

G_M

Can't coment o section 20 Notice, but properties do not have to comply with current Building Regs, they have to comply with the Building Regs in force at the time the work was done. Otherwise householders would be constantly upgrading as the BRs change.

So: If the convertion complied with BRs at the time (20 years ago), then the freeholder should have obtained sign-off at that time. No further work needed now.
If the BRs have changed since then, that is irrelevant.
However, if the work either did not comply at the time, or complied but was not signed off, then the freeholder or whoever did the conversion was clearly at fault.
They may now be trying to regularise the BR certification and find either that the work doesn't comply with the 20 year old BRs, or more likely that the work has to comply with todays current BRs standards since certification is being applied for currently.
I would question why it was not signed off 20 years ago and put the onus on the freeholder/managing agent to pick up the bill for this failure.

As an aside, of course, you and/or your solicitor should have checked this when you bought the flat!

Doozergirl

I don't see why the freeholder would be responsible for it, G_M?

Much like any other property, you buy what you see. You check the structure and you ask for relevant documents. Unless there is a guarantee in place for work, then if a structural problem arises subsequently, it becomes your problem to pay to be rectified in accordance with the lease (ie. through the managing agent in this case).

OP I thinking you're placing a lot of reliance on Building Control. It just sounds like a structural issue that needs looking at - BRs doesn't come into it. Whether it was signed off or not when any work took place, whether that was 20 years ago or 8-10, there is a problem now and the correct procedure is being followed now.

I can't fathom from the OP what the issue is with the chimney breast so I won't even try to comment on the work that needs doing!

G_M

You're right doozer - I was side-tracked by the OP's reference to building regs. It's hard to comment without understanding what the works in question are, why they are needed, how they relate if at all to the original conversion 20 years ago.

OP - ignore my first post!

chris_m

Bearing in mind that a chimney where the fireplaces below have been removed (which is what I guess has happened here) can weigh a ton or more, it would be far preferable, IMO, to get the support checked/sorted to ensure that it won't fall down than to argue over what regulations applied when the work was done.
If it does come down it will hurt - both through the damage (roof, ceilings, floors, maybe the wall itself etc) it causes to the building and, God forbid, the physical hurt it does to the poor soul it lands on.

martindow

Did you have a survey carried out when you bought the flat?

ab7167

Firstly, the building regs do change from time to time, the only change I can think of to Part A in the timescale you mentioned relates to disproportionate collapse, which is possibly where this has come from. There may have been minor changes that I am not aware of, but I can look it up for you later today, if you would like? Secondly, are you the ground or first floor flat? Which bit of the breast has been removed? Do you know if it was done with gallows brackets? (like right angle triangles bolted to the wall) - there are restrictions on the use of these, so possibly another avenue to explore. What are they asking you to do? Remedial work or just to obtain BR certificate - if you already have a certificate, I can't see why they are coming back. As others have pointed out, BR does not require retrospective compliance, although with chimneys it is important to get it right!

ab7167

Right, the last change to part A was 2004. There was a change relating to the proportion of a chimney remaining above a roof if the breast below was removed. Does it sound possible that this is their concern?

silvercar

At some point there was a change to the rules regarding gallows brackets, something about how far the chimney could project beyond the bracket??

hellokitty70

Hello All,
Thank you for your replies. :j
My flat was converted by our freeholder between 2003/2004. Our current managing agent and employees were employed at the same time. I'm reviewed my purchase details and can see their solicitor continually insisted the property was converted 20 years ago and building regulations aren't available. Looks like my solicitor didn't pursue this, but did suggest buildings indemnity insurance? I've no idea why I didn't take this....
A recap on the problem. I am in a ground floor flat. A structural engineer has confirmed that the chimney that travels through the building and ends in the first floor flat is original, stable and in his opinion ends at the first floor. In his opinion it never continued into my flat. He does however recommend a steel to support the chimney and to comply with current building regs.

This is what he says:
*****

The underside of the chimney breast projects from the ground floor wall alignment by approximately 125mm. The external wall construction at ground floor level in the location of the chimney breast is approximately 430mm (overall including all finishes). The wall width reduces by 125mm remote from the chimney area. The underside of the projecting chimney construction is formed by
cantilevered bricks built into the wall. There is not any indication that a flue/chimney existed originally at ground floor. The underside of the breast is solid and the brickwork is considered. ******

What I'm trying to ascertain is; how have building regulations in relation to chimney projections changed since 2002-2004? Where rules re projections in place at that time. If they were, surely the managing agent and freeholder should have adhered to this during the modernisation of my flat? The room in question, was completely rewired, retiled and a new ceiling installed during 2003/2004.

Thank you for any advice, and further insight you can shed