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Debate House Prices
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House price falls would be excellent for the economy
Comments
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HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »See "Detroit".
[/debate]the.ciscokid wrote: »Wut? Please explain Detroit's downfall based solely on house price falls.
Assuming you can (or I assume you wouldn't have said the above), please explain why this is not as a consequence of house price inflation.
TIA.
Care to respond Hamish?0 -
the.ciscokid wrote: »Care to respond Hamish?
Sure. I really shouldn't have to.... You should be able to comprehend without explanation, but never mind.
The OP claimed that "house price falls would be excellent for the economy".
I noted that it's done Ireland a world of harm instead.
You claimed that HPI was the issue, not the falls.
I noted that severe falls without preceding spectacular HPI have done Detroit a world of harm.
You asked me to explain.
I've explained.
The fact of the matter is, that if there was any truth to the bears repeated fallacious claims that cheap houses do the economy a world of good, then places like Detroit or Ireland should be booming by now.
They aren't.
And here we are.
[/debate]“The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie – deliberate, contrived, and dishonest – but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.
Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.”
-- President John F. Kennedy”0 -
HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »Sure. I really shouldn't have to.... You should be able to comprehend without explanation, but never mind.
The OP claimed that "house price falls would be excellent for the economy".
I noted that it's done Ireland a world of harm instead.
You claimed that HPI was the issue, not the falls.
I noted that severe falls without preceding spectacular HPI have done Detroit a world of harm.
You asked me to explain.
I've explained.
The fact of the matter is, that if there was any truth to the bears repeated fallacious claims that cheap houses do the economy a world of good, then places like Detroit or Ireland should be booming by now.
They aren't.
And here we are.
[/debate]
Toss. Economic collapse is never just about house prices.0 -
Economic collapse is never just about house prices.
Never said it was.... Although a house price crash will almost inevitably tip a country into recession, total collapse requires a bit more.
Just pointing out that there are plenty of places where cheap houses have demonstrably not made their economy better, and plenty of places with expensive houses and thriving economies.
Therefore the OP is a load of tosh.“The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie – deliberate, contrived, and dishonest – but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.
Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.”
-- President John F. Kennedy”0 -
HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »Never said it was.... Although a house price crash will almost inevitably tip a country into recession, total collapse requires a bit more.
Just pointing out that there are plenty of places where cheap houses have demonstrably not made their economy better, and plenty of places with expensive houses and thriving economies.
Therefore the OP is a load of tosh.
So, taking this to the other end of the scale. Is there a location in the world where high property prices have actually propelled the economy, for any prolonged period of time? And, obviously....that hasn't ended up in a bust scenario?
If not....what's to say the OP is tosh?0 -
HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »Sure. I really shouldn't have to.... You should be able to comprehend without explanation, but never mind.
You really should, because you are talking out of your !!!!, and I am interested to see how far you are prepared to go with this tripe.HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »The OP claimed that "house price falls would be excellent for the economy".
I noted that it's done Ireland a world of harm instead.
You claimed that HPI was the issue, not the falls.
So you do not disagree then?HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »I noted that severe falls without preceding spectacular HPI have done Detroit a world of harm.
You asked me to explain.
I've explained.
No, you have spouted a load of straw man toss.HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »The fact of the matter is, that if there was any truth to the bears repeated fallacious claims that cheap houses do the economy a world of good, then places like Detroit or Ireland should be booming by now.
They aren't.
You must be able to come up with something other than that? To pin the entire city of Detroit's rise/ fall or otherwise on house price rises and falls is monumentally naïve.
HPI was the downfall of Ireland's housing market, because it was clearly unsustainable... else it wouldn't have crashed. Granted the cause of that is the shocking practices of the financial sector.HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »And here we are.
[/debate]
Well that's it then. How terribly self important of you. It's the 3rd time you have used your new catch phrase in this thread, and it is still just as embarrassing as the first time.
Try justifying your comments with some facts.0 -
HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »I noted that severe falls without preceding spectacular HPI have done Detroit a world of harm.
Was it house price falls that did so much harm, or was there something else that caused house prices to fall ? If prices in Detroit are now "low", and there has local employment, surely that's going attract people to the area. Those people will have more money to spend in the wider economy, as they'll have more disposable income.30 Year Challenge : To be 30 years older. Equity : Don't know, don't care much. Savings : That's asking for ridicule.0 -
Was it house price falls that did so much harm, or was there something else that caused house prices to fall ?
It was reducing population that did the harm initially, from the shrinking of the motor industry.
This lowered property values, which fed into a negative feedback loop of "reverse wealth effect".... house price falls lead to reductions in local spending, harder times for local businesses, more unemployment, reduced tax revenue, reductions in services, increases in crime, more people move away, house prices fall further, repeat process.
House price falls are a very significant contributing factor to the decline of Detroit. Which is why Detroit is now bulldozing entire suburbs and turning them back into farmland.If prices in Detroit are now "low",
They are. $10 for a house in the worst parts, but just a few thousand dollars in some of the medium areas.and there has local employment,
But there's the catch. House price falls destroyed the wealth locally... People no longer had the confidence to invest, and the economic decline spiralled out of control. Just as is happening in Ireland today.surely that's going attract people to the area. Those people will have more money to spend in the wider economy, as they'll have more disposable income.
But demonstrably that is not the case.
Cheap housing has done absolutely nothing to make Ireland or Detroit more attractive to businesses, or more competitive.
In fact, just the opposite, it has been one of the most important contributors to the decline.
Young people in Ireland aren't happy they can buy cheap housing, they're queing up at the borders to get the hell out. Anywhere.... for the crappiest of jobs.... Just so long as it's not the wreck of an economy that the house price crash has left Ireland in.“The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie – deliberate, contrived, and dishonest – but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.
Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.”
-- President John F. Kennedy”0 -
HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »It was reducing population that did the harm initially, from the shrinking of the motor industry.
So, had house prices have not reduced, things would have been a lot better, even though many people had lost their jobs ?
"I've lost my job. I know, I'll sell my house to Arnold down the road, and that'll keep me going. Oh, hang on a second, Arnold also lost his job, he won't be able to buy my house, and even if he did buy my house, I'd still need somewhere to live. Maybe I can sell it to someone moving into the area. Oh, hang on a second, why would anyone be moving here when there are less jobs available ?"
Yes, Hamish, it doesn't matter about any other part of the economy, it's all about house prices, isn't it ? House prices - the tail that wags the dog.30 Year Challenge : To be 30 years older. Equity : Don't know, don't care much. Savings : That's asking for ridicule.0 -
HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »Cheap housing has done absolutely nothing to make Ireland or Detroit more attractive to businesses, or more competitive.
Perhaps there are some other factors making Ireland less attractive ? Like the lack of credit pouring into the country ?30 Year Challenge : To be 30 years older. Equity : Don't know, don't care much. Savings : That's asking for ridicule.0
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