Signing house over to children before care

RAS

theloopholekid wrote: »

Hi, have read the posts with great interest.

However, does anyone know any actual way of stopping the local councils from selling someones house (or taking a charge etc) to pay for someones full time nursing care in a home?

And this is not for my own inheritance, I would sell my shoes to see my grandfather had good care, its simply him that wouldnt! He feels he has worked all his life and paid his 'stamp' was born and lived in his ohouse all his life and doesnt want it sold.

The loopholekid.

Everyone keeps talking about the council. Actually the Council only get involved if the person going into care does not have enough ready money to pay their nursing homes fees and or does not have a "power of attorney" (there is a new title for this) set up.

As soon as the Social Services knew that we had an EPA and that we had access to enough money to pay the fees in the short-term, they dropped right out of view.

What that meant was that we could choose which nursing home, where, and ensure that she was well looked after. If the Council are going to pay the fees, their only interest is in getting the older person into the cheapest place available. They block book rafts of rooms at knock-down prices. This is why everyone else has to pay so much (council pay about 35% less that private people).

For mum this meant somewhere really nice, where they played the music she liked and treated her respectfully. it cost a fortune. When we first started looking, it was £400 per week and the social worker at the hospital would not authorise a care package that cost over £90, because they could warehouse their oldies at £100 per week. We took control, paid 120 per week to keep her at home and then moved her to a rural setting close to my sibling so she could see the grandchildren regularly. I dread to think what the £100 per week place was like.

The home agreed that if the money ran out, they would move her into local authority funding, although they did not expect her to live that long. As I said it cost a fortune, but she only lived three years and we still got an inheritance.

It is really, really important, whilst grandfather is still compos mentis that you fix a power of attorney (the new version). The other factor is that if you do not and if he goes gaga, the Court of Protection take full control of his affairs and I am surprised they do not feature in these postings.

EdInvestor

RAS wrote: »

What that meant was that we could choose which nursing home, where, and ensure that she was well looked after. If the Council are going to pay the fees, their only interest is in getting the older person into the cheapest place available.

For mum this meant somewhere really nice, where they played the music she liked and treated her respectfully.... I dread to think what the £100 per week place was like.

It would be interesting to hear more details about exactly what the difference is, since so many people seem to think there is no difference at all between "free" (council paid) and "funded" (you pay) care.It has always seemed to me that this is highly unlikely.

They block book rafts of rooms at knock-down prices. This is why everyone else has to pay so much (council pay about 35% less that private people).

There is a huge difference between 100 pounds a week (5,200 pa) and 400 pounds (20,800 p.a.).Are you sure this is correct? (35% off would mean the council paid 260 pounds a week, 13,520 a year, this sounds more realistic).

[Many people can fund up to 10k a year with their pensions plus attendance allowance fairly comfortably, and an "immediate needs annuity" top-up (Click here for details)which caps the cost and guarantees it (and is tax free) is not that expensive for a person in their 80s or 90s - often manageable through savings.

Fears of loss of the home/inheritance are often misplaced IMHO.]

seven-day-weekend

You could also fund the place from the person's own income, plus renting out their home, plus savings.

Selling the home is not compulsory, althought I agree it is often worrying for the elderly person themselves.

RAS

EdInvestor wrote: »

It would be interesting to hear more details about exactly what the difference is, since so many people seem to think there is no difference at all between "free" (council paid) and "funded" (you pay) care.It has always seemed to me that this is highly unlikely.

To clear up a few things

From the beginning:

When mum was first assessed as needing home support, this was done by the Council and they immediately paid the agency. Then they assesed her income and savings and she had to refund the whole lot every month: the Council paid the agency, then mum paid the Council. In practice, I wrote the cheques.

Then she ended up in hospital and her needs were re-assessed. This was 6 months after the social worker had been asked by us and the day hospital to do the job and no doubt contributed to her ending up in hospital. That was when the SW refused to authorise £120 per month home support because the Council policy was that anyone who needed more than £100 was to move to a home, because they only had to pay £100 per week. There was a new home that he wanted her to move into.

Apart from anything else, she lived 150+ miles from either or us and we wanted her to into a home near one of us if that had to happen. The only way we could keep her at home, which is what she wanted, was to take responsibility for the home support ourselves; pay the agency direct. We had to pay more per hour than the Council did, but they added a management fee each month, so the actual extra was only a few pence an hour.

RAS

There is a huge difference between 100 pounds a week (5,200 pa) and 400 pounds (20,800 p.a.).Are you sure this is correct? (35% off would mean the council paid 260 pounds a week, 13,520 a year, this sounds more realistic).

We are not talking about the same home. The first home (£100 pw) was the one which the Council wanted to move mum into. We never saw this one as we never considered moving her there. The second one (£400 per week) was a really nice one near her grandchildren. Unfortunately, they had a three year waiting list and when we needed to move mum, after yet another hospital stay, they had no vacancies.

By this stage we had a diagnosis and there were a limited number of homes which could take her, so she ended up a bit further away from the grandchildren. By the time she died three years later, the cost was £2400 per month, mitigated by the attendence allowance. We were just getting to the stage when she needed nursing care and might have been eligible for state support when she died.

This nursing home took one third Council clients at a substantial discount (they implied about one third discount and admitted that our fees were essentially subsidising the Council clients). What they did do was to promise that if the money ran out, they would transfer her to a Council bed.

RAS

EdInvestor wrote: »

It would be interesting to hear more details about exactly what the difference is, since so many people seem to think there is no difference at all between "free" (council paid) and "funded" (you pay) care.It has always seemed to me that this is highly unlikely.

When mum moved into the nursing home they only had a small room left. A few week later she was offered a bigger room with a better view. If she had been "Council", she would not have been made that offer. As it was, she refused to move because "this is my home now".

We had dealings with three Councils at various points. If the Council arrange the home, they put the person where they have contracted places at a low price. If the family organise the home, they can choose it to meet the person's preferences and relocate the older person nearer family, which we did. if the older person has no savings but has a home which can be sold, then the Council will pick up the tab in the short-term and then reclaim the money when the house is sold. Our original council agreed that we could relocate mum, but when they realsied that she had savings to pay for the short-term fees they handed the whole thing over to us.

We discovered that the Council in which the second home was based would not fund the fees is the money ran out before mum died. At that stage the cost would have been c£1800 per month and we expect c£16000 for the house and knew that she could live 7-9 years so it was a bit worrying.

As it happened, they had no room and the third home was in a different county. When we rang them, they said they would pay the fees if the money ran out, as long as she did not have another home to sell and she had lived inthe county for more than two years.

Confusing or what?

RAS

seven-day-weekend wrote: »

You could also fund the place from the person's own income, plus renting out their home, plus savings.

Selling the home is not compulsory, althought I agree it is often worrying for the elderly person themselves.

We thought about this. Mum had a good pension and some savings. But we would have needed to pay about half of them to get the house into a state where it could be rented out for enough to support her. If there were no voids and we could get a good rent and there were no problem tenants, it would have worked but we would have had no safety net. And if we had to sell quickly, we might have had to take a low price.

missile

I wonder if anyone has hired a live in carer to look after parent(s) in their own home? Seems to me a viable alternative to care home and surely would not cost £1800 / month

seven-day-weekend

missile wrote: »

I wonder if anyone has hired a live in carer to look after parent(s) in their own home? Seems to me a viable alternative to care home and surely would not cost £1800 / month

Good idea. Does anyone know how much it will cost? Board and lodging and a smaller wage than otherwise, do you think?

missile

I feel sure most parents would be far happier living in their own home. The cost would depend on what level of care is required and obviously the house would need to be large enough to accomodate.

If it is basically a live in house keeper, then it could cost very little and may qualify for a carer allowance. At the other end a full time SRN nurse could become expensive, but still less than some of the horrendous charges quoted in this thread for care homes.