Self Employed but hours and time off dictated

Thumper77

Hi there,

I'm new to the forum so please be gentle ..

I have recently started working part time for a tutoring centre and just before starting I was told that it would have to be on a self employed basis, so I did the right thing by contacting HMRC etc.

The hours are set so I have no choice about this, which is fine. However I recently told the owner, with about a months notice, that I would need a day off and she has made it clear that this is fairly awkward. She has said that because they run sessions throughout the year (including school holidays) there has to be a 'certain level of commitment'. I work at this place for 1.5 hours a week and also teach at a school, so I had made it clear that there would be times during the school holidays that I might be away.

Basically, I was under the impression that as a self employed person I would be in control of when I take time off (within, reason obviously). I kind of feel that the owner has got a pretty good deal here - she dictates the hours and asks people not to take time off but doesn't have to offer much in the way of commitment because everyone is self employed!

I'm beginning to wonder if it's worth continuing for the sake of a such small wage when I also have to do the work of invoices, tax returns etc.

I'd be interested to know how others feel about this. I don't have any previous experience of self employment so I appreciate I may have got the wrong idea. Any advice would be great.

getmore4less

Tell the owner that you will have to go employed on PAYE if they want to dictate your hours and days.

Self employed you offer a service when you want.

Tell them when you won't be working and let them decide if they want to continue to give you work.

How easy is it for them to get someone, does it have to be you, could you organise a stand in?

Thumper77

Thanks for the advice, that's kind of what I thought. She did ask me if I knew of anyone who could stand in, but I don't really. She has said as it's a one off it's okay this time, but it's not really a one off as I don't want to be tied into working every week of the year! I'll make it clear again that I can't always commit over the school holidays and she can decide what to do. Thanks again.

bap98189

Thumper77 wrote: »

Basically, I was under the impression that as a self employed person I would be in control of when I take time off (within, reason obviously).

Yes, but equally they are quite entitled to look for someone else to replace you in the same way that you can find a new plumber or builder if you are not happy with their work.

PlutoinCapricorn

There are really two issues here.

There is something called "false self employment" under which employers try to escape their responsibilities and reduce costs by telling their staff that they must be self employed but still want them to work under exactly the same terms as an employee would - and for the same amount of money but with no holiday or sick pay. HMRC are trying to put a stop to this. Are you earning at least 20% more than an employee doing the same work would? There is something called a zero hours contract for people who work for the same employer but do irregular hours which might be more suitable. Is the employer aware of HMRC's definition of self employment? A regular committment over a long period of time raises the question of why someone is not on the payroll.

Assuming that self employment is appropriate for this work, then you should negotiate with the client not take orders from them. You have the right to send a substitute if you can't come in. Obviously you will want to retain their goodwill and show that you are reliable, but you should be free to arrange what days you can work: that is what I do.

Hammyman

I would say that customers do dictate to some extent your hours when you provide a service. She did state that you can send others in to cover for you so in that respect, your ability to send whoever you like in your place meets the S/E criteria as does the fact you can actually take time off when you want even though they accept it begrudgingly.

Thumper77

Thanks for the responses. I have no intention of challenging the owner, I just wanted to get a feel for what other people thought so this is really helpful. Thanks again.

Thumper77

To update, I have now decided to let this work go. I feel the owner asks for a lot considering the work is on a self employed basis, and for such a short amount of time per week. She has said a few things recently that I feel have been attempts to get me to confirm that I'm committed to working there long term. Her latest suggestion was for me to come in during my own time (unpaid) to do some prep work. I have given the owner two weeks notice, although one of these weeks was a negotiated holiday for which I offered the services of a friend. She has however decided to cover it herself. She called me (at the weekend) to say I've now put her in a very difficult situation and is asking for more notice. I am beginning to think that the situation does fall into the category of 'false self employment' as suggested by the poster above.

I realise that this is a bit or a rant so apologies for that, and I hope I'm not being unreasonable. My relationship with the owner has always been very good and I have upheld a professional manner at all times. I do feel that she is fairly inexperienced in terms of running a business (it's a franchise) and dealing with staff and I appreciate it must be difficult, but part of me also feels she is taking advantage slightly. What do others think?

Jowo_2

Here's the HMRC guidance to help you understand how they define an employee versus self employment.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/employment-status/index.htm

Personally, I don't think you understand the distinction very well, either and perhaps it exacerbated by the failure of you and this organisation to have a written contract in place? You write "Basically, I was under the impression that as a self employed person I would be in control of when I take time off" but that's rather simplistic. Is there a written contract in place and if so, why did this not prevent this dispute?

As a business (true self employment), you provide a service to your client and therefore personal matters should not intrude. The client don't owe you any pastoral or welfare care. A business strives to please the client and will be mindful of their reputation. Being self employed is risky - it has rewards but it usually requires much greater commitment. Sounds like the rewards here aren't worth it for you, and that is fine enough reason, but thinking that you can provide a service when it suits you may correspond with HMRC regulations but isn't a great way to operate on a freelance basis where many freelancers pretty much have to make their life fit round their professional commitments.

This lady operates a business - she has to fulfill the demands to match the supply of students and please them and while I don't dispute that she has weak management skills or poor contracts - she has her reputation and professionalism to her clients (the students) to think of. You can see it from your point of view but can you see it from hers? She needs to have resources in place to support the students as equally as strongly as you want to have time off for personal reasons.

PlutoinCapricorn

There are some good points being made on behalf of the employer, but I still think that this is not real self employment.

I negotiate for a particular assignment and ensure that I have enough time to get it in by an agreed delivery date. They can rely on me for that, but for only that. I may or may not be available in the future.

If an employer wants someone to be available for a regular committment over the long term, they really should put them on the payroll, in my opinion.

themull1

You do not have to give more notice. How were you paid? did the woman offer a salary or did you tell her how much you charge?