Solicitors

Ebenezerscrooge

Hi,

My wife is executor for her father's will. Her mum is still alive. Her father's only asset on death in January was the house (value £300,000), which was as held tenants in common, and his share passes to his 2 daughters now that he has died. Mum continues to live in the house. She has made a will leaving her share to her 2 daughters.

Now, my question is, why should she use a solicitor to obtain a grant of probate? Her father had no other assets, the bank account was held jointly, and we have arranged for everything to be transferred into her mum's sole name (the bills, the bank account etc etc).

The solicitor wants £2k to deal with the estate (he charges £185 per hour).

The government website says it costs £90 to obtain a grant of probate, and even provides the forms to deal with it. That's a heck of a difference from £2,000, don't you think? I mean, how long does it take to complete the form?

SmlSave

Hi, it sounds as though you only need a Grant of Probate to add the names of the daughters.

Most solicitors charge per hour for Probate matters and so much per letter received/written. It's not unusual for a bill to get up to £3000 to get a Grant of Probate! However, there are ways round it like doing all the legwork yourself and then getting a solicitor just to check the paperwork.

The Oath for Executors is easy to fill out. The IHT205 is more difficult but can be done - you need the values of all assetts and liabilities as of the date of death. If you can collate all the information required then a decent solicitor would probably check the forms for you for a fee.

Remember that to change the Property Deeds will cost you extra as well, there'll be a charge from the Land Registry and you may have to fill out forms TR1 and AP1. Give them a call to check. Ask the Land Registry if you have to get a Grant of Probate, they may advise you that there's another way.

Ebenezerscrooge

SmlSave wrote: »

Hi, it sounds as though you only need a Grant of Probate to add the names of the daughters.

Most solicitors charge per hour for Probate matters and so much per letter received/written. It's not unusual for a bill to get up to £3000 to get a Grant of Probate! However, there are ways round it like doing all the legwork yourself and then getting a solicitor just to check the paperwork.

The Oath for Executors is easy to fill out. The IHT205 is more difficult but can be done - you need the values of all assetts and liabilities as of the date of death. If you can collate all the information required then a decent solicitor would probably check the forms for you for a fee.

Remember that to change the Property Deeds will cost you extra as well, there'll be a charge from the Land Registry and you may have to fill out forms TR1 and AP1. Give them a call to check. Ask the Land Registry if you have to get a Grant of Probate, they may advise you that there's another way.

Thanks.

There are no other assets at all (and no liabilities whatsoever), other than the house, which was dealt with in my father in law's will. The house is already registered under tenants in common, and my wife and her sister are the beneficiaries of his half of the house, which is worth £300,000 - well below the IHT allowance. This had been done for IHT planning purposes back in 2003, which, of course, is no longer necessary given the changes in the way IHT is applied to married couples. However, we believe it would be prudent to maintain this arrangement given the possibility that my mother-in-law may need nursing care in the future.

Can anyone tell me what the solicitor can do that the executors of the will would be unable to do? The government website says it would cost £90 for a grant of probate. Why would £2,000 be reasonable, given the work needed to be carried out appears to be minimal? We have already chagned the joint bank account to a sole name. What else would we ned the grant of probate for (we didn't actually need one for the bank account anyway).

Savvy_Sue

SmlSave wrote: »

Remember that to change the Property Deeds will cost you extra as well, there'll be a charge from the Land Registry and you may have to fill out forms TR1 and AP1. Give them a call to check. Ask the Land Registry if you have to get a Grant of Probate, they may advise you that there's another way.

Although you may not need to do this: just wait until Mother wants to sell the house, or after her death the daughters wish to do so. Mother can't sell the house without the other 'tenant' giving permission, the will demonstrates that this is now the DDs.

That at least is what we have been advised in a similar situation.

Ebenezerscrooge wrote: »

Can anyone tell me what the solicitor can do that the executors of the will would be unable to do?

Very little. They may give advice, but with a simple will like this it doesn't sound as if you need any. We only went to the solicitors to collect Dad's will! You can do the rest yourself: the Probate office are great and quite used to this.

However, the solicitors would also be advertising in the London Gazette, to ensure that there ARE no debts. All you're likely to get from that - if the situation is as you describe - are people wanting to buy the house, sight unseen, for cash. You can safely ignore those. And again, the executors can do that.

In your wife's position, I'd get a book on Probate from the Library (or buy one) and have a read. We used the Which guide, and it's been fine.

If your wife has 'instructed' the solicitors, then she may have to pay for any work they have so far done. But she can simply de-instruct them and tell them she plans to apply for probate herself. If she hasn't yet instructed them, and just asked for a quote, then she can just proceed.

And I am sorry for her loss.

System

SmlSave wrote: »

Remember that to change the Property Deeds will cost you extra as well, there'll be a charge from the Land Registry and you may have to fill out forms TR1 and AP1. Give them a call to check. Ask the Land Registry if you have to get a Grant of Probate, they may advise you that there's another way.

You don't need to change the deeds. Lodging a copy of the will and death certificate with the deeds is sufficient.
That was all that was required for both my parents and in-laws.

Savvy_Sue

!!!!!! wrote: »

You don't need to change the deeds. Lodging a copy of the will and death certificate with the deeds is sufficient.
That was all that was required for both my parents and in-laws.

Don't even need to lodge, if the deeds are online rather than physical, IYSWIM. We will have to produce will and death certificate when we try to sell the house, not before.

Tuesday_Tenor

You haven't said whether the solicitors were named as executors, along with your wife, in the will.

Her father may have named the solicitors as a 'failsafe' so that there was an executor in the unlikely circumstance that your wife had pre-deceased him or was unable to act for some other reason.

If that's the case, the solicitors might be persuaded to renounce executorship, as they are not needed. They will probably charge a horrible amount for a single letter of renunciation, but it won't be as much as 2K!

If the solicitors aren't named as executors in the will, I can see no reason why they should be needed for the straightforward case that you describe.

gratefulforhelp_2

Ebenezerscrooge wrote: »

Now, my question is, why should she use a solicitor to obtain a grant of probate? Her father had no other assets, the bank account was held jointly, and we have arranged for everything to be transferred into her mum's sole name (the bills, the bank account etc etc).

The solicitor wants £2k to deal with the estate (he charges £185 per hour).

The government website says it costs £90 to obtain a grant of probate, and even provides the forms to deal with it. That's a heck of a difference from £2,000, don't you think? I mean, how long does it take to complete the form?

You do not need a solicitor for this. The form will take a couple of hours max, less if you have all the documents (bank statements, original copy of the will et.c. to hand) you will have to attend a probate interview lasting around 15-20 minutes, where they will ask you whether the accounts are as it says on the form and ask you to swear an oath on one or other religious book (the bible generally).

There is a helpline number on the forms if you get stuck, and it does indeed cost £90 plus a pound for each additional copy of the grant of probate that you request (good to have some spares for solicitor et.c.)

DH has just done this and it was no problem.

eta three edits, 1. you need to be named as an executor I think, 2. you need to have the agreement of the other executor and 3. it might be hard if there is loads and loads of money in complicated trusts.

Ebenezerscrooge

Tuesday_Tenor wrote: »

You haven't said whether the solicitors were named as executors, along with your wife, in the will.

Her father may have named the solicitors as a 'failsafe' so that there was an executor in the unlikely circumstance that your wife had pre-deceased him or was unable to act for some other reason.

If that's the case, the solicitors might be persuaded to renounce executorship, as they are not needed. They will probably charge a horrible amount for a single letter of renunciation, but it won't be as much as 2K!

If the solicitors aren't named as executors in the will, I can see no reason why they should be needed for the straightforward case that you describe.

Thanks.

The solicitor was not named an an executor in the will.

Ebenezerscrooge

gratefulforhelp wrote: »

You do not need a solicitor for this. The form will take a couple of hours max, less if you have all the documents (bank statements, original copy of the will et.c. to hand) you will have to attend a probate interview lasting around 15-20 minutes, where they will ask you whether the accounts are as it says on the form and ask you to swear an oath on one or other religious book (the bible generally).

There is a helpline number on the forms if you get stuck, and it does indeed cost £90 plus a pound for each additional copy of the grant of probate that you request (good to have some spares for solicitor et.c.)

DH has just done this and it was no problem.

eta three edits, 1. you need to be named as an executor I think, 2. you need to have the agreement of the other executor and 3. it might be hard if there is loads and loads of money in complicated trusts.

His only asset on the death was the house, held with his wife as tenants in common. No complicated trusts, no money in any accounts, anywhere. As I said earlier, no other assets, no liabilities.

It appears that all we need to do is complete a Form PA1 and a form IHT205, and that's it? Send them off to the Probate office, attend an interview, swear an oath, and that's it. £90. Saving - £1,910.

Job's a good 'un. Wish I'd been a solicitor now....

SmlSave

Job's a good 'un. Wish I'd been a solicitor now....

You still need to do about 5 years of studying to qualify And you should see the amount of work that's normally involved with Probate files - I am actually unable to pick them up myself!