£100 fine from tax office

jimmo

taxing wrote: »

In practice, we would phone up pre the deadline and get a tax officer to put a NIL (all zeros) return through to clear the record...they are reasonable and do this when it is recognised there was a 'time lapse' and the next year's return was already in 'the computer' even though, technically, HMRC had agreed no more were needed.

In my latter days at HMRC I had a couple of mates in the processing sections who would process a NIL Return for an individual if I asked them to. Like me, they were long term Inland Revenue men and, to be honest, I did not know whether it was strictly legit, but it was practical.
WaxiesDargle, you need to be careful.
On the one hand you have received a letter saying you will get no more Tax Returns. On the other, you have received a Fixed Penalty for failure to submit a 2009/10 Return.
Certainly in my days at HMRC an appeal against a fixed penalty would not even be looked at until such time as the "failure" had been rectified.
So you really have to complete a 2009/10 Return before your appeal can be considered.
If you complete the Return and you have no tax to pay for 2009/10 the fixed penalty will be automatically reduced to nil. End of.
If you complete the Return and you actually owe money that will be a very different story.
What really worries me, and I don't know the answer, is whether you will get a 2010/11 Return in April. On the one hand you have been told that you will not, but you have lost the letter. On the other, the S A system says that you currently have a Return outstanding and, certainly in my days, that was an automatic trigger for the issue of the following year's Return.
All I can suggest is that you keep an eye on things. Assuming that you filed on-line in the past then if you log on next May and the system allows you to complete a 2010/11 Return then you really should do so.

John_Pierpoint

One final thought for people already in this sort of "left hand does not know what right hand is doing" situation:
Make sure you don't join the 2,000 citizens per day who die - well as you cannot be sure that you won't be called to account to a higher authority; put a note with your will in your deed box to explain where your tax files are kept.

Note for executors:
For most creditors you will want to inform them about the death as soon as possible, to get yourself some breathing space, while you try to put together the accounts up to the date of death.
If you promptly inform HMRC you will/may get back a knee jerk reaction, a grotty old style manual form called R27.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/forms/r27.pdf

Don't be fooled into thinking that all you have to do is fill in this form for the final "x" months of a tax year in the life of the deceased.
If the deceased is all ready in the clutches of the self assessment system, there are boxes on the back side of R27 that allow you to carry on with the deceased affairs almost standing in his own shoes:

If the deceased normally completed an annual Self Assessment Tax Return or R40 claim form
and you would prefer to complete one of these now for the period 6 April to date of death
please tick the appropriate box and I will send you one.

If the deceased is already in a Self Assessment system that works, stick with it, however clunky it might be.
You won't be allowed to do it on line (unless the rules have changed in the last 2 years) but send off for those multicoloured Self Assessment forms for the year of death.
Thinking you can complete form R27 and that is the job done, will cause apoplexy on the part of the Self Assessment system. There seems to be no joined up government between the manual R27 and the computerised SA system. The former will give you a refund while the latter is fining you and charging you interest when the July payment on account, the best part of a year after the death, comes and goes unpaid.

John

Tag line: It is a Mr Dog life and it gets worse when you die - the tax system lives on after you have gone.

suso wrote: »

You know the box in question, box 3 on page tr5, its gets an automatic tick from most accountants trying to drum up repeat business.

Is that is the box I think it is - the one that says "Don't mess about with my tax code, I want to pay the tax liability from the 6th of April last year NOW"? (because we don't want ad hoc changes in our monthly pay making a nonsense of our carefully crafted budget and direct debits, while getting our tax liability into such a muddle that we don't know if we are coming or going?)

My sister ticked the box and still had her tax code slaughtered to code out her liability, making her mortgage DD bounce.

dori2o

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

One final thought for people already in this sort of "left hand does not know what right hand is doing" situation:
Make sure you don't join the 2,000 citizens per day who die - well as you cannot be sure that you won't be called to account to a higher authority; put a note with your will in your deed box to explain where your tax files are kept.

Note for executors:
For most creditors you will want to inform them about the death as soon as possible, to get yourself some breathing space, while you try to put together the accounts up to the date of death.
If you promptly inform HMRC you will/may get back a knee jerk reaction, a grotty old style manual form called R27.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/forms/r27.pdf

Don't be fooled into thinking that all you have to do is fill in this form for the final "x" months of a tax year in the life of the deceased.
If the deceased is all ready in the clutches of the self assessment system, there are boxes on the back side of R27 that allow you to carry on with the deceased affairs almost standing in his own shoes:

If the deceased normally completed an annual Self Assessment Tax Return or R40 claim form
and you would prefer to complete one of these now for the period 6 April to date of death
please tick the appropriate box and I will send you one.

If the deceased is already in a Self Assessment system that works, stick with it, however clunky it might be.
You won't be allowed to do it on line (unless the rules have changed in the last 2 years) but send off for those multicoloured Self Assessment forms for the year of death.
Thinking you can complete form R27 and that is the job done, will cause apoplexy on the part of the Self Assessment system. There seems to be no joined up government between the manual R27 and the computerised SA system. The former will give you a refund while the latter is fining you and charging you interest when the July payment on account, the best part of a year after the death, comes and goes unpaid.

John

Tag line: It is a Mr Dog life and it gets worse when you die - the tax system lives on after you have gone.



Is that is the box I think it is - the one that says "Don't mess about with my tax code, I want to pay the tax liability from the 6th of April last year NOW"? (because we don't want ad hoc changes in our monthly pay making a nonsense of our carefully crafted budget and direct debits, while getting our tax liability into such a muddle that we don't know if we are coming or going?)

My sister ticked the box and still had her tax code slaughtered to code out her liability, making her mortgage DD bounce.

No, it's the box that says, 'I have other income that is not dealt with via PAYE and it will give rise to a tax liability in the year in which this tax return is being completed (i.e. the year after the return is being submitted for) so I will require a tax return issuing at the end of the tax year to declare this income.'

Pennywise

dori2o wrote: »

No, it's the box that says, 'I have other income that is not dealt with via PAYE and it will give rise to a tax liability in the year in which this tax return is being completed (i.e. the year after the return is being submitted for) so I will require a tax return issuing at the end of the tax year to declare this income.'

That's funny - your tax return must be worded differently to everyone else's.

As per the HMRC web site, question 3 on page TR5 says "If you are likely to owe tax for 2010-11 on income other than employed earnings or pensions, and do not want us to use your 2010-11 PAYE tax code to collect tax during the year put "X" in the box"

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/forms/sa100.pdf

Did you make up your quote?

suso wrote: »

of course the shoddy completion of tax returns by so called "highly qualified" accountants who indicate that income tax will be due in the following year but it not permitted to use the tax code to collect it, which means an automatic issue of a tax return has nothing to do with the myth that once in SA its impossible to get out.

You know the box in question, box 3 on page tr5, its gets an automatic tick from most accountants trying to drum up repeat business.

Ignoring the myriad of reasons why a taxpayer may actually prefer not to have his/her tax code messed around - HMRC's record of issuing correct PAYE codes isn't good! Also, ignoring that fact that the taxpayer will still have to tell HMRC their "other" income each year by completing a different form, and then having to deal with underpayments if their income was higher than the previous year, meaning coding out an underpayment in the next but one tax year, to sit alongside a coded out adjustment for the estimated other income. Fine for people with constant levels of "other income", but where the figures change, it's a nightmare to try to keep on top of things. SA returns are far easier and quicker for an accountant to complete than faffing around trying to keep up to date with PAYE codes and correcting them, when inevitably, they are wrong. If a taxpayer wants an accountant to look after their tax, then SA reutrns is the most efficient way to deal with it.

dori2o

Pennywise wrote: »

That's funny - your tax return must be worded differently to everyone else's.

As per the HMRC web site, question 3 on page TR5 says "If you are likely to owe tax for 2010-11 on income other than employed earnings or pensions, and do not want us to use your 2010-11 PAYE tax code to collect tax during the year put "X" in the box"

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/forms/sa100.pdf

Did you make up your quote?

I suggest you read my quote again. I was made in the same sarcastic manner that John_Pierpoint made their post.

Oh, just in case you need it

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sarcasm

John_Pierpoint

Have look at R27 - it is not clear to me if it requires GROSS income and tax deducted or NET income and the tax already deducted.

So I wrote an explanation next to each entry.

dori2o

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

Have look at R27 - it is not clear to me if it requires GROSS income and tax deducted or NET income and the tax already deducted.

So I wrote an explanation next to each entry.

Unless the form specifically quotes NET income, it is always gross income that is used.

John_Pierpoint

...........but Self Assessment is net.
In the old days, when all three figures were reported, it was always bit embarassing if one had bits and pieces to report. The pence rounding effect, when adding up dividends and savings interest, meant that the totals looked as though someone could not press the correct buttons on the calculator.

suso

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

Is that is the box I think it is - the one that says "Don't mess about with my tax code, I want to pay the tax liability from the 6th of April last year NOW"? (because we don't want ad hoc changes in our monthly pay making a nonsense of our carefully crafted budget and direct debits, while getting our tax liability into such a muddle that we don't know if we are coming or going?)

My sister ticked the box and still had her tax code slaughtered to code out her liability, making her mortgage DD bounce.

Its not, the box you refer to is box 2 on page tr5

What causes needless issuing of returns and fuels the myth its impossible to get out of sa is box 3 on page tr5

It says "If you are likely to owe tax for xxxx-xx on income other than employed earnings or pensions, and you do not want us to use your xxxx-xx PAYE tax code to collect that tax put "X" inthe box."

It means your getting income aside from your employment and want to deal with it outside of PAYE. so a return will be issued.

So joe bloggs a self employed subbie, finds a full time job, through the payroll, he hands in his paperwork to his accountant who does his final years return for self employment. The accountant ticks the box and a return is issued for the following year, joe ignores it, thinking that its been issued by mistake and doesn't apply to him 10 months later he gets a fine,

que 1.) phonecall to HMRC, 2.)posting to forums, 3.) jumping on the bandwagon about how bad HMRC is, when all they have done is follow the instructions on the previous years return.

The amount of times that this box is ticked when it shouldn't be is staggering

yes HMRC is not perfect, but its not all onesided.

Pennywise

suso wrote: »

Its not, the box you refer to is box 2 on page tr5

What causes needless issuing of returns and fuels the myth its impossible to get out of sa is box 3 on page tr5

It says "If you are likely to owe tax for xxxx-xx on income other than employed earnings or pensions, and you do not want us to use your xxxx-xx PAYE tax code to collect that tax put "X" inthe box."

It means your getting income aside from your employment and want to deal with it outside of PAYE. so a return will be issued.

So joe bloggs a self employed subbie, finds a full time job, through the payroll, he hands in his paperwork to his accountant who does his final years return for self employment. The accountant ticks the box and a return is issued for the following year, joe ignores it, thinking that its been issued by mistake and doesn't apply to him 10 months later he gets a fine,

que 1.) phonecall to HMRC, 2.)posting to forums, 3.) jumping on the bandwagon about how bad HMRC is, when all they have done is follow the instructions on the previous years return.

The amount of times that this box is ticked when it shouldn't be is staggering

yes HMRC is not perfect, but its not all onesided.

So you're saying that if the box isn't ticked, then HMRC won't issue an SA return are you?