dismissed after advice from line manager

Ihatecameron

I would suggest making a claim for unfair dismissal, let a tribunal decide.

WhiteHorse

On the facts given, there is no dishonesty (no mens rea, or guilty state of mind), on the part of the OP. It was unwise to trust a manager of course, but that is hardly a crime.

It likely that the manager concerned was motivated either by malice, or some incentive (getting someone dismissed for dishonesty looks good on their CV, or perhaps some means had to be found to cut staff).

The OP has good grounds for legal action. The Doctor concerned issued a corrected note. If he/she will make a statement to the effect that the original certificate was in error, it gets even better.

The OP can prove that the manager called them - the trick will be to get the manager/firm to deny that in writing. Then, and only then, confront them with the proof. Thus they will be shown to be liars.

Emmzi

I cannot believe the advice I am seeing here, idealism doesn't fill yor belly.

In a job requiring COMPLETE HONESTY the OP forged an official document. Therefoe there is no way he has a 100% clearcut case for anything.

And yet he is being encouraged to waste money on solicitors, stress on tribunals, which by the way can drag out for months and may end up with him being landed with costs for a bringing a frivolous case. Let's get back in the real world where even if you believe he is in the right, justice is stressful, costly, and takes a very long time. In the meantime he has to live and eat, so how about some pragmatism?

In his position I'd be trying to move on with my life, looking for a new job, and asking the manager nicely for a personal reference which might not show my deceit.

Uncertain

MrRedundant wrote: »

That said 4-6 weeks for a gallbladder may have been excessive especially when you managed to travel the country.

That is totally irrelevant. We are told that the GP would have been happy to sign the OP off for this period of time. Without a second qualified medical opinion, perhaps from an occupational health consultant, it would be virtually impossible for the firm to challenge this.

The whole matter hinges around the alteration of the document. This is possibly mitigated VERY SLIGHTLY by the fact that no financial loss has been caused to the firm (assuming the doctor confirms that s/he would have issued a longer certificate).

Whether (or not) this justifies dismissal for a first offence is a matter of opinion. My own view, for what it is worth, is that it may well.

However, this doesn't necessarily mean the firm would spend time and resources defending a claim. They may well do but equally they may reach a settlement regardless of how they view the rights and wrongs.

One thing is certain, the OP will get noting unless they try. If they go down this route then they need to balance risk, stress and reward.

MsHoarder

Uncertain wrote: »

That is totally irrelevant. We are told that the GP would have been happy to sign the OP off for this period of time. Without a second qualified medical opinion, perhaps from an occupational health consultant, it would be virtually impossible for the firm to challenge this.

The whole matter hinges around the alteration of the document. This is possibly mitigated VERY SLIGHTLY by the fact that no financial loss has been caused to the firm (assuming the doctor confirms that s/he would have issued a longer certificate).

Whether (or not) this justifies dismissal for a first offence is a matter of opinion. My own view, for what it is worth, is that it may well.

However, this doesn't necessarily mean the firm would spend time and resources defending a claim. They may well do but equally they may reach a settlement regardless of how they view the rights and wrongs.

One thing is certain, the OP will get noting unless they try. If they go down this route then they need to balance risk, stress and reward.

But the company needs to present the sick note to the government in order to get the NI-based statutory sick pay back. See HMRC advice. Therefore, the OP provided the company with a fraudulent form which had to leave the company again, and which would have caused financial loss to the company. For an employee in a position of trust the reason this triggers a disciplinary process is clear.

Note that it is possible to get a sick note from a GP without them seeing you, as long as they have evidence that you are ill for that time, so it would have been possible to get an earlier dated one just by ringing the GP's office. But that is in the past..

The only defence I could see would be one of illness. I know that for part of when I was off on sick leave I had no judgement due to a combination of fever/morphine, if the OP was ill to that extent then maybe there is a possible case to be made that they were not in their right mind and this is not how they usually behave.

teameffort

Have you spoke to ACAS? they will be able to tell you quickly if any thing can or should be done against the company. it's worth a try.

Uncertain

MsHoarder wrote: »

But the company needs to present the sick note to the government in order to get the NI-based statutory sick pay back. See HMRC advice. Therefore, the OP provided the company with a fraudulent form which had to leave the company again, and which would have caused financial loss to the company.

Not that it is really relevant to this to this thread, it is only very small businesses that actually get SSP back from the government. It is an anomaly (no doubt carefully planned) of the system.

MsHoarder wrote: »

The only defence I could see would be one of illness. I know that for part of when I was off on sick leave I had no judgement due to a combination of fever/morphine, if the OP was ill to that extent then maybe there is a possible case to be made that they were not in their right mind and this is not how they usually behave.

I agree. Although I wouldn't hold much hope of the OP winning a tribunal (or getting much in the way of an award if they did) I think there is enough "grey" here to be worth at least a preliminary go. If nothing else an ACAS brokered settlement could include an agreed reference. This costs the company nothing and they may well agree if they think the OP is determined enough to keep going.

Uncertain

teameffort wrote: »

Have you spoke to ACAS? they will be able to tell you quickly if any thing can or should be done against the company. it's worth a try.

It is not the role of ACAS to give legal advice!

The first level there is just a glorified call centre with poorly trained staff. They can do little more that read out information that you can find online.

If the OP files an ET1 claim then it will go to somebody a little higher who's function is to try and see if a settlement can be reached without going to tribunal.