Obscure Employment Law / Recruitment Question

Fondue_2

Not exactly definitive advice, but I've just asked my husband who's a recruitment consultant. He said that the key point is when (if at all) you received Ts&Cs form the RC. Industry recommendation is to agree at the outset, but usual practice is to send with the CV, otherwise you obtain agreement to terms when the company wants to interview, and before sending contact details or setting up the interview. He always aims to get them signed, even if electronically, but interviewing the candidate is probably implied acceptance.

Did you receive Ts&Cs at any point before you offered the job (or were they discussed verbally)? If not, he (and I, as a lawyer) can't really see how you have a contractual relationship with the RC, certainly not a clearly defined one. I suppose arguably one may arise if you do employ her, and so they could argue that you have to pay them a fair fee. But clearly their definition of a fair fee and yours differs dramatically, which is the whole point of agreeing terms in the first place.

I've checked with him whether there might be a contract with the candidate to prevent her from working for you if you don't pay the fee and he said that he can't think of any consultancy that does that. Oh, and it's illegal to charge candidates a fee in the UK.

His view, if the RC didn't get you to agree terms before you interviewed, is that the recruiter has cocked up. His precise words were, 'as a senior recruiter, I'd expect to get the sack if I did that'.

He also said that for permanent recruitment the introduction fee varies according to industry but the minimum for skilled employment is around 1 month's salary (so 8.5%, and not usually that low in the UK), and the maximum he charges is about 25% of first year salary.

He was also interested to know whether this was a big agency or a small independent?

If you employ her, they'd have to take you to Court to recover their 'fee'. Based on what you've told us, I'm not sure they'd win, but I'm no expert in this area of law and it's obviously a lot of hassle. It might be better to stand your ground and agree a reasonable fee, hard to say what that is though without knowing the salary for the job in question. Husband says that the most he would expect to get in those circumstances would be a notional sum for a finder's fee.

Wellery82

ScoobySnacks79 wrote: »

Exactly Russell, it's just a variant on the old vacuum cleaner/windows/security system/stair lift home sell. I'm willing to bet that you will get a call from the manager, offering a reduced rate, but only if you agree there and then to sign on the dotted line.

It's the oldest close in the book, and if you want her enough to consider taking them to court, then they know they've got you by the short and curlies. Her contract with them will prevent her working for you if you refuse to pay the fee. I bet she's already paid an up front fee to them to find her work.

Sadly what they have done probably isn't illegal, though it does sound like they're trying it on a bit with the price. Work out how much she is worth to you, and then phone them and negotiate a mutually agreeable price. Its almost certain they won't have anywhere else for her to go, so a bit of hardball back at them should see them reducing their fee considerably. You have the advantage of knowing that there are lots of people out there who want the job, whilst they are working against a huge amount of competition. Tell them that you have someone else who is just as suitable, and that their agent only wants £500. To them, no sale is the worst outcome. Even if they get her away for £400 they will be happy. Don't be the mug that pays full price (or even the "reduced" price). Their cost is very small, basically the time to send the CV out, and the time to negotiate the fee. So they can take a small amount and still make a profit.

Just a thought, if she's so keen to work for you, how come she's approaching you through an agent, and didn't find the job herself? Obviously she wasn't trying very hard!

I'm sorry but there is a lot of information in there i don't agree with at all, having worked in recruitment agencies myself for a number of years previously. Just my opinion though so its not right or wrong

Firstly the candidate will not have paid the agency a fee, as has been said this is illegal.

Secondly you mention they won't have anywhere else for her to go - i would not be so sure. If you are so keen on the individual then why would others not be? I would always personally try and get a candidate out to as many interviews as possible for situations like this, it put me in with a far better chance of finding something right for the candidate, and also made my negotiation point far stronger

Third point is the fee of £400 - this is simply not realistic in any sense of form in my opinion. The candidate has a worth to the agency, they WILL have other companies who pay them the % fee they outline in their terms and conditions. So if they can find another company interested in this candidate they can make £10,000 on her. It is very very unlikely they would even contemplate a drop to an amount like this. It doesn't make you a mug to pay a reduced price, if you want to use the agency again then if you invest in them then they will spend time, money and effort to find the right candidate. If you treat them with contempt and try and get the minimum fee they may throw a few CVs at you, but will do very little past that

Also you mention their cost is very low. It doesn't mention however that many decent agencies will call the candidate into their premises, conduct an hour long interview to really understand not just their ability but their aspirations, they will spend hours calling various companies to try and match the candidate to jobs, spend thousands of pounds on advanced software to advertise and search for the candidates at the outset, the time spent prepping the candidate for the interview, sending out e-mails to confirm interviews, checking on all the little details on their behalf etc. Theres a reason recruitment consultants earn very good money, its because there is a lot to do and it isn't easy. If they drop a fee to an amount like you suggested it devalues there work and sets a precedent that makes it impossible for them to cover their costs and stay in a job

Fondue_2

Jimavfc82 wrote: »

Third point is the fee of £400 - this is simply not realistic in any sense of form in my opinion. The candidate has a worth to the agency, they WILL have other companies who pay them the % fee they outline in their terms and conditions. So if they can find another company interested in this candidate they can make £10,000 on her. It is very very unlikely they would even contemplate a drop to an amount like this. It doesn't make you a mug to pay a reduced price, if you want to use the agency again then if you invest in them then they will spend time, money and effort to find the right candidate. If you treat them with contempt and try and get the minimum fee they may throw a few CVs at you, but will do very little past that

Also you mention their cost is very low. It doesn't mention however that many decent agencies will call the candidate into their premises, conduct an hour long interview to really understand not just their ability but their aspirations, they will spend hours calling various companies to try and match the candidate to jobs, spend thousands of pounds on advanced software to advertise and search for the candidates at the outset, the time spent prepping the candidate for the interview, sending out e-mails to confirm interviews, checking on all the little details on their behalf etc. Theres a reason recruitment consultants earn very good money, its because there is a lot to do and it isn't easy. If they drop a fee to an amount like you suggested it devalues there work and sets a precedent that makes it impossible for them to cover their costs and stay in a job

I've been asked to agree with these last 2 points.

However, if the agency didn't agree terms before interview then they are on a bit of a sticky wicket and the ball is in the OP's court (apologies for mixed metaphor), especially as it doesn't sound to me like the OP has any interest in building a relationship with this agency.

SHIPSHAPE

I would have thought any fee would be charged to the job hunter, they are the ones who have a business relationship with the recruiter and have engaged them to find work for them.

This company appears to have not been upfront and have simply cold called with no initial mention of any fee to the employer.

Russe11

Jimavfc82 wrote: »

I'm sorry but there is a lot of information in there i don't agree with at all, having worked in recruitment agencies myself for a number of years previously. Just my opinion though so its not right or wrong

Firstly the candidate will not have paid the agency a fee, as has been said this is illegal.

You are confused to what constitutes an employment agency and an recruitment agency.

Since they appear to be operating as an a recruitment agency and not actually doing the employing, but just the service of head hunting and matching CVs they are not governered by any employment law when it comes to operation of their business.

Therefore if they wish to charge customers for their service then they are allowed to do so.

Its when they are offering employment and charge a registration fee or simular upfront cost they are breaking the law.

Russe11

SHIPSHAPE wrote: »

This company appears to have not been upfront and have simply cold called with no initial mention of any fee to the employer.

Another hard sell tactic, you don't have to buy now etc etc, just find out what we do/offer. Essentially a ruse to get the foot in the door, thus creating another oppurtunity to sell.

heretolearn_2

You did contract for their services when you asked them to send along the candidate. Surely you didn't think they were a charity doing this for free?

Both you and they were at fault in not agreeing the fee beforehand, but you still used them, I don't think you can try to claim that you didn't.

Did they send you any t&cs? If they did, and then you agreed to the interview, you accepted them.

This was an interesting thread on the level of agency fees though. We've talked to a few specialist agencies recently and their standard fee was 20-25%. We found one small agency willing to come down to 15%, but that was the best. We decided to do without. Right now people are queuing up for jobs so we get plenty of good applicants through the job centre, for all levels of roles.

DVardysShadow

SHIPSHAPE wrote: »

I would have thought any fee would be charged to the job hunter, they are the ones who have a business relationship with the recruiter and have engaged them to find work for them.

This company appears to have not been upfront and have simply cold called with no initial mention of any fee to the employer.

For very good reasons which have become lost in the mists of time, it is illegal for an agency to charge a fee to a job hunter.

MsHoarder

Russe11 wrote: »

You are confused to what constitutes an employment agency and an recruitment agency.

Since they appear to be operating as an a recruitment agency and not actually doing the employing, but just the service of head hunting and matching CVs they are not governered by any employment law when it comes to operation of their business.

Therefore if they wish to charge customers for their service then they are allowed to do so.

Its when they are offering employment and charge a registration fee or simular upfront cost they are breaking the law.

No, it is illegal for them to charge a fee to introduce people to a potential employer, whatever they call themselves. A RC can offer a CV editing service (for example) but only if this is completely separate from the recruitment section.

This is to stop scam companies from being able to claim they have lots of contacts and swindling someone who is looking for a job.

TheHorse

MrRedundant wrote: »

You've been naive expecting the service for nothing. 4k for an agency fee is probably about going rate for a decent employee. You could chance it and take them on and hope the agency doesnt find out but thats risky.

I'd get the terms and conditions from the agency for you and the employee and see what they say and look for a way round them; if you cant then you have a difficult decision.

Naive? Try reading the OP. Not naive, its called not having our pants pulled down for 10k and funnily enough we got a call this morning accepting the fee we were willing to offer.

Either way, we did not ask them for their services - they approached us.

Alls well that ends well anyway, thanks everybody else for your comments and help. :beer: