Likely redundancy

unholyangel

This is possibly a VERY long post so please bear with me.

Ok i recently posted on here on behalf of a friend, i'm now posting on behalf of myself and would appreciate any advice or opinions. I want to know where i stand legally (i have a rough idea already) and also opinions on the situation and whether i'm possibly being unreasonable.

At present i work 35 hours a week and get working tax credits (albeit not much but every little helps). I work sunday 2am-8am, sun midnight-8am, monday, wed and thur 1am-8am.

My employers are looking to close the office sun-thur nights from midnight-6am which obviously affects most of my shifts. They have made it clear they are making the hours redundant and not me specifically. They have also said they would prefer to keep me on over 2 part time employees as i am better at the job. Its for a taxi office and during the hours the office is closed, the taxi driver will be answering the phones.

There has been no "official" notice of redundancy or anything but i'd prefer to get things sorted now and not leave it till last minute.


The hours they have offered me are: thur 6-8am, 1-6pm, friday 1-6pm, sat 8am-6pm, sun 2am-8am, mon and tue 6-8am.

Which obviously means i'd be losing 3 hours a week along with a day off. The other problem i have is thursdays. my mum had a hip operation and depends on me (since my dad also had a knee operation and has had countless complications) to take her shopping on thursday. she possibly could change it though but only to a friday or saturday both of which i'd be working.

I used to have several jobs but gave them up in favour of working steady shifts at the taxi office as it was impacting on my health. I'm worried these shifts will do the same.

They have not consulted the staff officially in any manner yet. But they asked me to start these shifts next week (when other staff members are on holiday) instead of working my normal shifts. Not only are the shifts less than attractive but they'd also be expecting me to take a pay cut immediately. And even then they wouldnt be permanent as obv, this is unofficial. If i accepted, i would lose extra money as i am scheduled to work 3 of the shifts on overtime.

I realise some people would kill to be offered these hours but my whole reason for going there full time was so i had a stable and steady job/routine. I like my job as they are flexible when it comes to getting time off etc and i really dont want to leave but i also know if their offer is reasonable, they can refuse to pay me redundancy.

Am i being unreasonable? Are they doing everything "by the book"?

getmore4less

They are a bit off the book but as these are just requests for now not far enough.

How long have you worked there redundancy is £400(or less if earn less) for each year but need 2 to qualify.


AS part of your consultation, first assess if the dropping of the shifts is justified.

I would start with the Taxi drivers are they happy to do the night cover, is there too much work for them, how do you think it will impact productivity/profits?

no point in changing and having to change back, if you think it won't work let them know.

OK asuming this change is justified, what do you want as an alternative, let them know, same pay hours with some flexability on thurs.
Are these short 2hr shifts worth bothering is it local?

How will getting rid of 2 temps impact cover?

What does your contract say about working hours?

Is the loss of pay just the hours or also the rate? (they want you so potentialy room to negotiate a rise)

I think a counter offer/negotiate with something like "I don't want you to have to make me redundant(test their thinking) but these hours don't quite work because........ if we could make these adjustments it would work much better for both of us".


Sound like a fairly flexable place that needs to make adjustments, untill you have tried a first round of negotiation you won't know which way this will go.


BTW your days/hours in the posts just don't seem to match, not that it is critical for us to understand the situation

before
I work sunday 2am-8am, sun midnight-8am, monday, wed and thur 1am-8am.

change
close the office sun-thur nights from midnight-6am

after,

thur 6-8am, 1-6pm, friday 1-6pm, sat 8am-6pm, sun 2am-8am, mon and tue 6-8am

Also watch out for the WTD rules on time off and time between shifts.
I think you are probably ok on averages but the sat/sun gap looks tight, not a big problem if you don't mind.

unholyangel

Ah no, the sun 2am-8am after the change (i think this is what you mean) is technically a saturday nightshift. so i would retain that shift but lose my 4 remaining nightshifts as they fall between the times they want to close the office (sun-thur midnight-6am).

I dont mind going without the legal minimum between shifts to help out, but i'm reluctant to do it on a perm basis because i know the impact it had on me last time i did it. People would be suprised how much a sleeping pattern can affect them.

The taxi drivers are happy because this means its less money they pay for their radio per week. Tue/wed nights are pretty quiet so will unlikely have any problem about answering the phone while already on a hire then but sun/mon nights can be sporadic/busy. In which case they'd either need to reject the call and lose business, answer the phone while driving or pull over while on hire to answer the call.

I'd be on the same rate of pay, just losing 3 hours a week. The 2 hour shifts are less than ideal and only really worth about £7 each by the time you factor in NI, tax and travelling costs. But if i were to drop them, i'd lose my WTC.

As for asking for alternative shifts to the ones they have suggested. This is a bit difficult if not impossible as there is only 1 operator in the office which amounts to 168 a week. It would involve changing other peoples shifts. Theres only 2 full time employees (one being myself) and the other one will be losing hours also at present as he works backshift.

CFC

You have 3 choices really - go through a negotiation process with them to get an agreeable adaptation of the hours that they are working, get made redundant, or accept their offer of the new hours.
As soon as the 'request' to change your shifts is refused by yourself they will probably go official. Bear in mind that as getmore says, there is no payout for redundancy if you have less than 2 yrs service.
If you decide that the alternative hours will be no good for you and you cannot negotiate what would suit you, you can reject the new hours as 'unsuitable alternative employment' and take redundancy.

unholyangel

I've been there 4 years and i'm 27. I know that should give me 4 weeks.

The reason they're asking me to start the shifts now is because they cant really consult the rest of the staff. One left on holiday tonight, another goes off on the sick for 2 months beginning saturday and when she comes back, the office manager is away on holiday.

Should they consult everyone? Or if they are looking for a quick solution (its a non-profit company owned by the drivers so cutting costs benefits the drivers immediately) can they make one/two people redundant without consulting everyone?

unholyangel

I suggested an alternative that would mean either a) everyone would only lose 1 hour or b) me and another member - who was already losing hours - would only lose 2-3 hours each a week.

Apparently it isnt suitable because 2 other staff members are unwilling to start at 6am as opposed to 8am (same length of shift just moved forward slightly) 2 days a week for 1 of them and 1 day for the other. I even said that i would be willing to do the early morning shifts and they could have the afternoons but that i was trying to keep their shifts as close to they are currently as possible.

Funny thing is the one who said no is one of the above staff members (the office manager) although they've been telling me all week about how everyone has to come and go and that no one can expect to have it their own way. Although when i asked if they would be willing to work the shifts they offered me, they did say they'd put my suggestion forward to the committee.

I'm just getting the impression that although they've said its the hours they're making redundant, not the person (and its just unfortunate its my hours), its basically a case of if i cant do all the hours to let everyone else keep their current shifts, then it will be me being made redundant.

I have said i would like honest opinions if i am being unreasonable and that still stands. But aswell as wondering if i'm being unreasonable, i'm starting to think i'm not the only one.

Is it really fair to effectively say to one person they need to change their hours and shifts completely or lose their job and not ask the other employees to give a little leeway? Must be nice to know your job is safe and point blank refuse any changes!

They keep saying they're making the hours redundant, not me but yet right after it they're saying if the other 2 dont take voluntary redundancy they'll have to think things through as they've both been with the company longer than me (one by a few months the other by a year) and both currently collect pensions, they've even both said they dont work for the money, just to get out of the house. Although nothings been mentioned about the person who has been there less time than me.

What can i say, in this light i'm hoping for the best but realistically expecting the worst.

jazzyman01

By what you are saying, you are the youngest by quite a bit.

The changes seem to affect you because of the requirement not to have someone doing your hours. You have also said how quiet it is. If the rest of the time there is a necessity to have you or one of your colleagues then it is clear that your hours will be the ones affected.

Consultation. There is no specific timescale for consultation re redundancy when there are less than 20 jobs at risk. What has to take place is meaningful consultation. This can be a few days or a couple of weeks.

You have proposed alternatives which would suggest that you have been consulted. It is up to the employer to try and may your suggestions work or give reasons why it wont. They should consider the changes.

As you are the youngest, you may well have a case for age discrimination because the only one being considered for redundancy is you without any requirement for the other staff members to make changes.

The

unholyangel

Yes i am the youngest. 5 others are late 50's to mid 60's. The only other 2 are early 40's and late 30's.

They havent officially consulted me in any manner. The redundancy is definitely going to happen though.

As for the changes, would the other staff members refusing to start 2 hours earlier be a valid reason to decline my suggestion? I've put forward to them that the current hours they are offering would result in either the person taking a lot of time off due to illness or a high turnover of staff for that position. I've worked shifts like that before. Its ok short term but long term the effects start showing.

TBH unless economy picks up and/or the company get their act together, they probably wont be in business in 5 years anyway.

CFC

Age discrimination will not fly because it is the OP's role (ie particular shifts) that are being cut. You can't just wave discrimination around, you need something to basee it on. OP has not been selected due to her age, she has been selected due to the fact that her particular role is redundant.

The company has to give due consideration (ie think about it) to the suggestions you make but they can just in fact come back and say no. There is no obligation to move other people's shifts around in order to avoid a redundancy situation. No sane company would go down this route unless the other people were willing to change their shifts voluntarily to support you.

At the end of the day they need a justification to make your role redundant, they have shared this with you, they have offered you redeployment into another set of shifts, and you have refused. Presumably it will all go formal now.

There is no minimum requirement for consultation as it is only you, they should hold a total of 3 meetings with you, with notes being taken in each meeting and a letter to confirm the redundancy situation, and in the last meeting they will tell you that you are definitely being made redundant.

They are clearly not willing to be any more flexible so that is the end of it I am afraid, they have met their requirements.

getmore4less

OK here is a long shot.

Drivers are running the bottom line.

Who is actualy the kingpin in this setup riunning the company that provides the drivers with the setup to make money.

You say they are inefficient and won't last 5 years.

You must deal with the drivers every day/night.

Is there room for a takeover and actualy run the show, could you do it?

as I said long shot,

Not clear why they need VR for the others or need a rethink if they won't take it, they obviously are not confident in what they are doing.

If you go and they won't do the hours who will?

Back to contracts and what do you want, if there is flexability in the contracts then you could insist on a pool of those that do essentialy the same job even though it is your hours mostly affected. Might not go down too well if that is going to delay things a lot.

8 people to cover seems a lot, is it multiple during the day, what hours do the others do? perhaps being nights you are not "IN".

Next option is look at the other taxi consortiums localy and try to work for the best, word could go round if you stirr it up a bit too much so think about that if you want to stay in the industry..

unholyangel

Well its not my shifts particularly that are being made redundant. It is a set of shifts which unfortunately happens to be 4 nights that i work (and 1 i dont).

I've spoken to CAB and they've given me some advice with regards to several things. She advised me to put the reasons i objected to the shifts they offered in writing to them should i need it later on (ie in case they say i didnt make the objections clear in enough time to consider alternatives etc).

She's advised me that i may still be able to get WTC even if i drop below the 30 hours minimum as it wouldnt be a voluntary reduction in hours and apparently there are special circumstances for that.
She also said there are possibilities (depending on what the company decide to do) of working the hours under protest and claiming unlawful deduction of wages.

So more research to be done Least it keeps me busy if nothing else.

Oh and as for me taking over the company, i'd have to buy out all the owners, if i did that i'd be left with no drivers LOL. The company itself isnt actually "worth" anything. It runs on a pure expenses (rent, staff etc) = income (radio rental money from the drivers).

Although funnily enough right in line with the redundancy they're planning on getting a datamaster system in - which costs thousands. No wonder they're keen for me to start the new shifts asap lol