Going Round In Circles - Where Next?

Siouxsie32

I'm hoping one of you can point me in a useful direction as I'm getting dizzy (not to mention an almighty headache) and don't know where to take this next.

In January, two direct debits were returned to Egg (I have two separate credit cards with them) as unpaid. The funds were in my account at the time and as soon as I noticed (the next day) I called Egg and paid them manually with my debit card. I incurred a £16 unpaid DD fee on each account. I didn't fully understand why this had happened but thought it might be because I was switching banks and there may have been a mix up but thought I'll take this up with the new bank once the full transfer had taken place and get the fees back.

All other DDs continued to be paid to other institutions in the meantime until the end of January when another DD was unpaid to Opus Mastercard. Again, the money was in my account so I called them and made a manual payment and they told me my bank (Santander, surprise!) had returned the DD as it was a 'redundant account'.

None of the rejected DDs showed on my Santander statement and there were no charges from them as a result.

I called Santander to see what was going on and, after much to-ing and fro-ing, I was told it was because the sort code changed in September and both Egg and Opus had presented to the account with the old sort code. Santander said they sent an 'electronic email' to all my DD recipients back in September so it was up to them to amend the details accordingly (which to be fair, all the other companies did) and I should take it up with them.

Incidentally, as I have since changed my current account to another bank, both Egg and Opus have the new details now (given last week by me) and don't keep old bank details.

Not surprisingly, Egg and Opus have said it's definitely Santander's fault and I should try to claim the charges back from them and Santander are saying the opposite.

So, I'm out of pocket to the tune of £44 and nobody is willing to help!

Where should my next contact be directed?

I'm thinking in writing to Santander? All advice welcome!

Thank you

Premier_2

As I understand it, Santander instructed Egg to change the sort codes.

Whilst Egg failed to do this, presumably the change in sort code was all part of Santander's streamlining (perhaps aligning one of the banks they swallowed up such as A&L to their own systems)

If this is correct, it seems to me it was Santander who should have properly closed down the old account and that included cancelling all existing DDI mandates. (and creating new ones in your new account - or transfer them over. How they actually should have done this is acedemic) But if they had done this you wouldn't have got hit with any charges on your old account. (and you can't get hit with charges on your new account as the DDI relates to the old one)

I would write a letter of complaint to Santander and ask that the charges are refunded.
It appears Santander may have done some of this as you say Egg were told the attempted DD collections were returned due to them trying to collect from a 'redundant account'. That is not the same as an unpaid item charge. Redundanty account suggests there was no valid DDI held (as there was no valid account) There is no charge to the consumer for failing to pay a DD where there is no valid DDI held or in fact no valid customer account any longer existing with the bank account and sort code it was trying to be collected from.

Am I correct in that the charges were charged by Santander for unpaid item, and not Egg for them not getting paid? If it was Egg charges, that would be different, so if that's the case post back.

Edit: actually I think you probably do mean Egg charges for late payment as they charge £16.
If so, this is Egg's problem. They were informed to change the collection details. Other companies managed to receive the information and comply, so why not Egg?
Write to Egg and complain. They should reimburse the charges as they were responsible.

According to the Originators guide & rules to the DD scheme, the Originator (Egg) is obligated to correct/amend any details so advised by a paying bank (the bank use a system call ADDACS - Automated Direct Debit Amendment and Cacellation Service to advise) within 3 working days.
(usually the banks run both accounts parallel for a few months to stop these complications, but eventually will close the old account completely)
If Egg dispute the information was sent, the paying bank can dispute it by providing a copy of that original instruction.
If all else fails, an Direct Debit Indemnity claim can be lodged. You do this by claiming from the bank under the terms of the DD scheme. The bank are not obligated to pay out immediately, but on receipt of the funds by teh Originator, which should be within 14 days.
But a complaint to Egg would probably be the easiest way forward initially.

Siouxsie32

Thanks Premier. Yes, the charges have been applied by Egg and Opus. Both say they cannot take change of bank details from anyone except me. I told them that I had not been informed of a change of details by Santander so wouldn't know to let them know and also, as you say, other institutions managed to change the details so why couldn't they?

I was just so fed up today with each blaming the other and spending over an hour on the phone (at a cost of almost £10) that I didn't know what to do next.

So, you're suggesting that Egg and Opus are to blame and I should go after them for the money? Each denied blame today on the phone saying it was up to Santander to look after my direct debits and in amending the details without checking they (Egg and Opus) had received and actioned the message they clearly were not looking after my DDs.

Likewise, Santander blamed the others as they sent the message in September and it wasn't their fault the financial institutions didn't action it.

Siouxsie32

Premier wrote: »

According to the Originators guide & rules to the DD scheme, the Originator (Egg) is obligated to correct/amend any details so advised by a paying bank (the bank use a system call ADDACS - Automated Direct Debit Amendment and Cacellation Service to advise) within 3 working days.
(usually the banks run both accounts parallel for a few months to stop these complications, but eventually will close the old account completely)
If Egg dispute the information was sent, the paying bank can dispute it by providing a copy of that original instruction.
If all else fails, an Direct Debit Indemnity claim can be lodged. You do this by claiming from the bank under the terms of the DD scheme. The bank are not obligated to pay out immediately, but on receipt of the funds by teh Originator, which should be within 14 days.
But a complaint to Egg would probably be the easiest way forward initially.

I spoke with a supervisor at Egg today but the head banging continued as she just reiterated that it's not Egg's responsibility and that I should go back to Santander. I'll call tomorrow and quote you and see what they say. Watch this space......

Siouxsie32

Oh, I forgot to add that I think Santander did run both accounts in parallel for a few months-that ties in with what they said.

Premier_2

susie-sue wrote: »

Thanks Premier. Yes, the charges have been applied by Egg and Opus. Both say they cannot take change of bank details from anyone except me....

That is incorrect and contrary to the Originator's Guide and Rules to the Direct Debit Scheme.

The paying bank can advise changes, (usually, for example, if the payer requests it) and is usually done today electronically using ADDACS. Section 10.1 (and other parts) of the above guide covers this.

10.1 Paying Bank generated advices
...
Additionally where the status of the Paying branch has changed (e.g. branch closure/merger) and the Direct Debit is addressed to the old details, the BACS system will provide advice of the new sort code and/or account number using the closed branch advice voucher, zero account number advice voucher or ADDACS.

These vouchers will be dispatched to the Originator with the correct details as supplied by the Paying Bank...

If a Paying Bank is live on ADDACS all advices must be via the automated method, unless there has been a system failure...

Originator's responsibilities

Originators must action these advices immediately or within 3 working days from receipt...

Should there be a dispute over whether an advice was issued, the Paying Bank will provide a copy of the ADDACS record or proof that an automated ADDACS advice has been sent to BACS...

Seems to cover you perfectly

You probably can't get access to the guide as it is, as the title suggests, for Originators use. The Originator, in this case Egg and Opus, should have a copy or be able to obtain one.

I would suggest making a formal complaint, (assuming you get no where on the phone with the CS person who probably won't understand the DD scheme fully) and hope that it gets escalated within the relevant company (Egg / Opus) to someone that does actually understand the DD scheme (or bothers to find out) and so uphold your complaint; if not, you can the go to the FOS who will hopefully know the rules and will uphold your complaint in full.

Siouxsie32

Wow, thanks so much. You're right about the CS people I spoke to! I asked to speak to a manager but was told what the manager said rather than actually getting to speak to them. I spoke to the FSA before I read your reply who basically said exactly the same thing so a formal complaint has been forwarded to all companies concerned.

It's so annoying that it's so difficult to get my money back.

I shall sit back and wait for them to get back to me!!

Nicky321

I was originally with A & L and they changed to Santander. I too had DD's set up and remember getting letters towards the end of last year from the different companies I had DD's set up with saying "thankyou for letting us know the change of bank details", even have a DD with Egg for a credit card, but never got a letter from them at all, but not had no problems with the DD to them either.