Underpayment of Income Tax - Who is to blame?

System

dori2o wrote: »

I'd like to see your proof of this.

The vast majority of complaints are still due to the assessments that were issued in November/December last year, OR are progress chasing complaints. Very little that the 'front line' staff have been involved with.

It is the front line staff that are the only "tax advisers" that most of us can talk to on the telephone because the complaints handler has only given the general call centre 0845 number in their contact details. In my case, these front line staff members have said that they are not allowed or cannot update my tax account because a different team are dealing with my case (I was also told this before I escalated my case to be a complaint) so, all the front line staff could do was send an internal message to the relevant team to give them the details I was trying to discuss. Either the details in this internal message were not clear, or the other team ignored the message, or the other team do not understand the tax system fully enough to get it corrected. Whatever the reason, the process is no good for anyones purposes because it takes too many tax advisers to resolve an issue, hence more complaints, hence more time, hence vicious circle.

dori2o

BAA1 wrote: »

It is the front line staff that are the only "tax advisers" that most of us can talk to on the telephone because the complaints handler has only given the general call centre 0845 number in their contact details. In my case, these front line staff members have said that they are not allowed or cannot update my tax account because a different team are dealing with my case (I was also told this before I escalated my case to be a complaint) so, all the front line staff could do was send an internal message to the relevant team to give them the details I was trying to discuss. Either the details in this internal message were not clear, or the other team ignored the message, or the other team do not understand the tax system fully enough to get it corrected. Whatever the reason, the process is no good for anyones purposes because it takes too many tax advisers to resolve an issue, hence more complaints, hence more time, hence vicious circle.

I'm not disputing the fact that the processes are simply awful, and you'll notice from previous posts of mine that I have mentioned this time and time again. But to say that the reason for the vast majority mistakes is the 'front line staff' is simply untrue.

Jollyjak

Not bad - only 2 weeks for a reply this time, and at long last, someone from the complaints centre in Nottingham has decided to give me their name and a contact telephone number - amazing!! He has also apologised for the situation, and will task someone from the Cardiff office to review all the documents and correspondence, this may take some time, but we will update you by the 11th August at the latest'.............we shall see!

Keep on fighting!

Jollyjak

1 Day to go - waiting with baited breath for their response.......

chrismac1

The Front Line Staff Training Programme in full:

Rule 1 - say "it is your fault"
Rule 2 - say "sorry we can't do that. It's not in our procedures."
Rule 3

er, that's it folks. End of training course, class dismissed.

MacMickster

chrismac1 wrote: »

The Front Line Staff Training Programme in full:

Rule 1 - say "it is your fault"
Rule 2 - say "sorry we can't do that. It's not in our procedures."
Rule 3

er, that's it folks. End of training course, class dismissed.

Thank you for such an insightful and helpful contribution to this thread.

Do you never worry that your attitude towards HMRC will lead them to have concerns about you and your clients - possibly leading your clients to have to deal with tax investigations which wouldn't have happened if they had a different accountant?

chrismac1

No I don't. All of my clients file their returns in plenty of time. Those that attempt to be late get a warning letter, which usually results in them turning up with their records and hence filing on time. Those that ignore the warning letter I take off my list of clients. Using these methods - with a softly softly approach before we get to that stage - there are a decent number of clients on my books who have never filed on time before coming to me who are now filing on time for everything.

I have never in my career - and never will - signed off a set of accounts or tax return which had anything dodgy in it. This has at times held back my career when I worked in industry. Of course there may be a few contentious issues in clients' accounts, but in those cases we have on the record our case for treating the items in that way. So if there ever was an enquiry both the client and me would quickly be able to answer it and be singing from the same song sheet.

I have 2 mates who are Tax and VAT Inspectors with 20 years plus experience. When we discuss these matters in the pub they usually bring out examples to illustrate that things are even WORSE than I am saying they are. Just as my friends who are regional and area bank managers generally agree that their leaders have the moral and ethical standards of the gutter.

chrismac1

Coincidentally I've just met someone from Taxwise who do the fee protection insurance for me. He left a large practice after about 15 years in their tax department, preceded by about 5 years as a Tax Inspector. The reason he left is because his job was getting ever more stressful. On the one hand his staff were spending ever longer dealing with clueless HMRC staff taking ages to resolve simple problems. On the other the top guys in his firm - who of course never had to phone or write to HMRC - couldn't understand why the tax department kept going over budget every quarter.

So no I am not that bothered if HMRC think I am a pain in the neck with my Complaints and so forth. They will get not one penny in unfair fines out of my client base no matter how many silly letters they write. If necessary I will take tough cases to my MP and the press.

Gas_Powered_Toothbrush

chrismac1 wrote: »

The Front Line Staff Training Programme in full:

Rule 1 - say "it is your fault"
Rule 2 - say "sorry we can't do that. It's not in our procedures."
Rule 3

er, that's it folks. End of training course, class dismissed.

The chrismac1 posting programme in full:

Rule 1 - It is always HMRC's fault.
Rule 2 - When facts contradict Rule 1, ignore them.
Rule 3 - The plural of anecdote is data.
Rule 4 - Posts designed to be humourous must not be even remotely amusing.

Jollyjak

Anyway, back to the main story.... I have just returned from holiday and opened all the post with great excitement, only to find that Mr Nice Man at HMRC who promised to let me know by the 11th August how things are going, has obviously gone on holiday as well! I will let you know if and when I get a reply with details of their investigation.......