Underpayment of Income Tax - Who is to blame?

chrismac1

On the same basis, Gassy Bogbrush would give up after just two letters to UK banks for mis-selling. But for some of our banks the Ombudsman finds against the bank 90% of the time on, for example, payment protection insurance claims. My personal view is that HMRC will end up in much the same boat and their initial "Not us Guv" letters have no more credibility than the banks' routine denials that they could ever have done anything wrong.

Full marks to MimiJane for persevering. There are other examples on other sites where folk have been successful after 4 or 5 letters. Give up ONLY when someone who is NOT part of HMRC has reviewed your case and supported the HMRC position - that is my advice. They are an organisation in total denial from top to bottom with only a few creditable exceptions.

Pennywise

flossy_splodge wrote: »

would you be willing to post a link to this Forum, Pennywise for those of us who do not know of it?
If not, would you PM me with it?
thank you.

Links were given in the following thread on these boards:-

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/2914914

Jollyjak

Ok - Here we go again!
Yesterday I had the delight of opening two long awaited letters from HMRC - both were written & sent on the same day, and are signed by the same person (could probably have used the same envelope to save taxpayers money possibly?), both referring to my last letter to them, and neither addressing the issues that I raised.

One letter rebuffs my ESC A19 claim and states that "I asked them not to collect the tax because HMRC delayed in dealing with the information or didn't do it correctly" - this is not mentioned anywhere in my letter of appeal - I appealed under ESC A19: employer error (PAYE95011 in their manual). There is no reference to any of my issues raised on this subject at all.

The second letter explains that the underpayment is due to my failure to notify HMRC of my new employment and also income from my pension. due to this failure "we were unable to access your records and you recieved duplicate tax allowances". I completed a P46 and ticked the 'additional income or pension' box when I started my new employment - this was then passed electronically to HMRC, and have confirmed verbally (awaiting a letter) with my pension provider that they passed details electronically to HMRC notifying them of my cessation of employment with MOD and the commencement of paying me a pension.

Therefore, I believe that HMRC HAVE been informed of my change in circumstances, albeit at two different tax offices, and have not linked the two together as mentioned in previous posts - same name and NI number.

They have also failed to answer a number of other points / questions raised in my letter, including reference to one encounter with a particularly rude and unhelpful employee (name supplied).

It appears that they have only 'skim read' my letter and continue with their attitude of bullying me into payment without actually looking at the questions I have asked.

Time to start on the next episode in this unpleasant saga. As I have explained before, I do not dispute that there may have been an underpayment, but when I believed that all my affairs were in order and the underpayment has occurred due to employer / pension / HMRC mistakes and lack of communication, then I will fight on until someone looks at my concerns objectively.

Cheers!

daisydog91

Thanx....sorry to hear about your dilemma but at least I'm not alone!! I have had the same abuse and explanatons from inland revenue staff,and I use the terms loosely, as they too have said i'ts my own fault even though I've always been upfront with any changes in my employment and tax status. I have received a tax bill for a similar amount going back 5/6 years where the ir have not been taxing me on a very small work pension and now they want to rectify their mistake by hammering me through this years tax code. They have also been taxing me for a company car I did not have for 18 months and on my most recent tax notice, apparently I had 2 company cars at the same time!! Amazing!! Does anybody know where I can get hold of that letter of appeal which you can send to them if you can prove that you have provided them with all the necessary info over the years and it's therefore their mistake? Someone said it was on here but I cant find it. Thanx Daisydog.

Pennywise

daisydog91 wrote: »

Does anybody know where I can get hold of that letter of appeal

Look at the link in post 33 above which links to the MSE thread linking to the UK Business Forums where they have a very active group helping people like you including specimen letters to send. There's also the Low Income Group (google for their website) doing likewise.

Jollyjak

Hi,
Have just had a flick through a couple of other threads and realised that I was being a bit optimistic.... Sent the last letter on the 5th April with APPEAL / COMPLAINT in BIG letters at the top of the page. The fact that I am still waiting for a reply and have had no more threatening letters hopefully means that it is actually being investigated. How much longer should I hold my breath for? and is it worth trying the 0845 'wait for life' line to ask what is happening?

Cheers!

Jollyjak

Had a phone call last week from Glasgow Office asking if I was ready to set up a repayment scheme. When I said that I was still waiting for my appeal to be answered she informed me that it had been refused - had I not seen the letter? Letter arrived 2 days ago, dated.....the same day as they phoned me! 12 weeks for a reply, and they expect a nuclear powered carrier pigeon to deliver it as soon as the ink has dried!
Friendly tax man says that he cannot accept that I completed a P46 with my new employer, as his records clearly state that a P45 was submitted. The fact that I have sent them copies of both documents 3 months ago has either been ignored, or they are calling me a liar.
They still will not tell me who is dealing with my appeal, so I have now sent a reply, with copies of all the previous letters and documents enclosed and sent these to the 4 different offices that have been involved (including the Nottingham office where complaints are escalated to) and challenged HMRC to look again at the irrefutable evidence (provided again) and actually communicate with each other to formulate a response.
We shall wait and see if I get 4 separate replies, or is someone going to have a rush of sensibility and take charge?

System

I too have just escalated a complaint to the Nottingham HMRC address, I await their response.

I find it unbelievable that the HMRC complaints process can allow a tax adviser to send out a letter in reply to a complaint without their letter being checked by a colleague or manager to do a sense check at least. I also think the complaint handler should include their direct telephone number on their reply so that you can query their reply directly, rather than having to write to yet another office.

Good luck with your complaint, I hope it is resolved to your satisfaction.

Pennywise

The HMRC meltdown continues...

Don't expect a reply any time soon. I've just received an acknowledgement to a complaint made in May which, I quote says

"This may take a while as we are currently receiving a high level of complaints."

and

"Currently we are reviewing complaints within 35 working days".

So, basically, they're taking two months to review complaints.

Perhaps they should start wondering why they're receiving so many complaints that the timescales for reviewing them are constantly increasing. I'd hazard a guess that it's not because they have fewer staff dealing with complaints, but far more likely that their front line staff dealing with taxpayers are just not doing their job properly.

It reminds me of a documentary about hospital complaints. The sister of a ward was whingeing that she couldn't get onto the ward to do her job because she was stuck in an office responding to complaints, and criticising people for making complaints. It never seemed to cross her mind that she should stop her staff from making mistakes in the first place and then there'd be fewer complaints. No doubt HMRC staff are likewise whingeing that complaints are taking longer to review because too many people are complaining, rather than accepting that in far too many cases, the front line staff are making mistakes and need to either be trained, disciplined or replaced.

dori2o

Pennywise wrote: »

The HMRC meltdown continues...

Don't expect a reply any time soon. I've just received an acknowledgement to a complaint made in May which, I quote says

"This may take a while as we are currently receiving a high level of complaints."

and

"Currently we are reviewing complaints within 35 working days".

So, basically, they're taking two months to review complaints.

Perhaps they should start wondering why they're receiving so many complaints that the timescales for reviewing them are constantly increasing. I'd hazard a guess that it's not because they have fewer staff dealing with complaints, but far more likely that their front line staff dealing with taxpayers are just not doing their job properly.

It reminds me of a documentary about hospital complaints. The sister of a ward was whingeing that she couldn't get onto the ward to do her job because she was stuck in an office responding to complaints, and criticising people for making complaints. It never seemed to cross her mind that she should stop her staff from making mistakes in the first place and then there'd be fewer complaints. No doubt HMRC staff are likewise whingeing that complaints are taking longer to review because too many people are complaining, rather than accepting that in far too many cases, the front line staff are making mistakes and need to either be trained, disciplined or replaced.

I'd like to see your proof of this.

The vast majority of complaints are still due to the assessments that were issued in November/December last year, OR are progress chasing complaints. Very little that the 'front line' staff have been involved with.