MSE News: Co-op 'breaking spirit' of anti rate-jacking credit card rules

izools

Tightarsey - whilst this doesn't resolve your clearly justified complaint against Co-Operative Bank, have you considered opening a Halifax Easycash account?

This comes with a proper VISA Electron card, which IS recognised by the travel firms.

The Halifax only do a soft search (Identification: Generic Check) when you open the account and don't report it to credit reference agencies so opening on will neither have any effect on your credit rating, nor will it be declined if you have a poor rating.

tightarsey

tightarsey wrote: »

Cooperative might have apoligised for threatening to impose a 6 month repayment schedule on Credit Card closures, but they are still creaming charges from their customers with Valid Visa Electron Cards (with Electron logo)

Cooperative for the record - my card isn't an 'Online Debit Card', it has a Visa Electron logo and I expect charges related to Visa Electron to be applied (ie. no fee/zero) when I select Visa Electron on a travel website. I don't expect to be charged fees relating to Visa Debit. The two cards are distinct, and are charged differently, they are not the 'same' as your trying to convince your customers.

I don't need an explanation, I need the system changed so this doesn't occur, and Cooperative need to pay back all the money they have incorrectly collected on behalf of travel firms, by incorrectly classifying Cooperative issued Visa Electron Cards. Cooperative have had 4 months to do something (this change occurred around 1st Oct 2010), so Cooperative obviously think its 'ok' to mislead their customers.
(and yes it is the fault of Cooperative - not Travel Websites, charges are clearly shown - what isn't transparent is the fact the charging mechanism applied to my card has been altered by Cooperative)

Cooperative are creaming charges on valid Visa Electron Cards and there is no regulatory body that does anything about it. FO, OFT, FSA, Card Payment Services - they are all useless when a complaint is against all customers for what are small amounts, but collectively add up to thousands. Basically 'technical system changes = under the radar, big buck profits'

The fact that no one from the Financial Ombudsman reads/monitors this board also shows what an incompetent organisation the FO is, allowing the Cooperative to get away with blatant dishonesty with regard to this matter. I've been systematically been lied to by Cooperative, to confuse, trivialise the issue as though it has no consequence, when thousands in charges are being mis-applied and collected from their customers.

Its about time someone got off their !!!!!! and sorted the problem. Get these charges incurred refunded to Customers, across the board. Cooperative should be made to issue a apology on the front page of their website, they have fcked up - and are trying to cover their ar5es. Own up, do the right thing - and put it right.

iztools, while helpful to unaware Cooperative Customers, its not really the point.
Getting a Halifax Visa Electron will end up being a short term solution, if Cooperative get away with this. Halifax will likely follow suit.
There is a line and they (Cooperative) have clearly crossed it, roles reversed - if as a customer I cross that line, I'm charged heavily, yet Cooperative are attempting to skirt below the radar - and not get caught. The Halifax is individually, a solution - but its not the solution.
This isn't about getting a refund of £18 back for myself, its about getting that £18 back * 20,000 Customers that has been charged by Cooperative, as said 'technical system changes = under the radar, big buck profits', its becoming a trend with Banks.

I've just received my new embossed Visa Debit Card replacement replacing my existing Visa Electron Card which expires on 03/11 (31/03/11). The new card is valid from 01/04 (01/04/11). The complete 16 digit card number is identical starting 450875. Its a shame I can't upload the cards (without shielding numbers) to show they are 'identical' card numbers (with different consecutive end/start dates)

So unless ALL Cooperative Visa Electron Cards in issue expire on the 31/03/11, which they don't, and coincidently, Cooperative had made the system change on the 01/04/11 - They are clearing breaching advertising standards by advertising at least one of these cards incorrectly. They can't be both a Visa Electron card and a Visa Debit Card unless the system change occurred on the 01/04/11 for everyone. (it actually took place around 1st October 2010)

Which proves the point - Cooperative are ripping off their customers with valid Visa Electron cards, by charging them Visa Debit card fees.

chexum

In light of what you have described, it's clear that Co-op were not being careful at the least, but it's not necessarily purely malice. By re-using the card sequence numbers, they are likely saving a bunch of money.

tightarsey wrote: »

Getting a Halifax Visa Electron will end up being a short term solution, if Cooperative get away with this. Halifax will likely follow suit.

Even if you you'd attribute this to technical incompetence, there's no reason to assume that Halifax is ready to make such a decision. With the Visa Electron brand slowly falling into disuse, there are less and less incentives to build terminals to support it, so it's likely to disappear in a few years if not earlier.

tightarsey wrote: »

This isn't about getting a refund of £18 back for myself, its about getting that £18 back * 20,000 Customers that has been charged by Cooperative, as said 'technical system changes = under the radar, big buck profits', its becoming a trend with Banks.

The difference between Debit an Electron cards in costs paid towards Visa is likely less than 25p per £100 (and around 10p vs 20p for very low values). The lion's share of the rest goes to the bank that operates the merchant account (i.e. the terminal), not the customer's/your bank (i.e. Co-op). The £18 that you are quoting is something that I would call completely unreasonable as well - unless you were paying £10k, but it's purely charged by the company you are paying (EJ I would guess), not your bank.

You could make it sound like it's their fault that they are getting their share of it, but they really have not much to do with the exorbitant charges set by merchants for the privilege of not having to operate an office to hand in cash.

tightarsey

Chexum,
Jesus, I get sick of this 'technical incompetence' get out clause your banding about. These are extremely bright articulate people running these banks (I know I've had to deal with them) - with an ever greater understanding of the ins and outs of technology, and how manipulation of it - can boost profits massively. Don't forget Cooperative are profiting from this through the thomas cook travel interest - so called vested interest. FlyThomasCook charge £12 for Visa Debit v zero fee for Electron.

Technical Manipulation at work:
How many people realise placing a £10 bet on the Grand National this year with your Credit Card through Ladbrokes/online betting company with cost you interest from the transaction date and a £5 cash advance fee when you get your statement. Is this your so called 'without malice' technical incompetence? - (Capital one Credit Cards).

£5 off each £10 Grand National Bet + Interest+3% fee charged to Ladbrokes - for using a piece of plastic to pay in advance on a one day 'National Institution', if that isn't creaming it, I don't know what is. Grouping a type of transaction, which is clearly an innocent flutter for most, as a hardcore betting transaction/cash advance. Most people are unaware, and the banks just cream it, and that is what in essence the Cooperative are doing here.

This is no 'mistake'.

With a slap on the wrist, 'we didn't realise what we were doing-we don't understand technology - bullsht'. Cooperative have known about this since the 10th of October 2010.
Managers have systematically lied to me, misinformed - blamed the Airlines/Travel Industry for this. Stated the card they issued wasn't a Visa Electron Card or a Visa Debit Card but an 'Online Debit Card' avoiding Visa Branding Terminology, as a get-out clause.

Anything but to address the issue, because as Cooperative knows- to back-track means a massive re-issuing of new card numbers with the correct bin type and refunding incorrectly charged customers. Instead Visa Electron Customers, have their cards processing switched to Visa Debit, CS attempt to trivialise the matter, as though it is of little importance, while large sums are really at stake.

Damage limitation at work, and in the process vast amounts of incorrectly charged Visa Electron Card transactions on Airline bookings such as flybe.com (incur £4.50 each way, per person - £18 for two flights) - I'm not blaming the airline - as stated their fees are clear. Flybe.com has processed the card from the information given to from Cooperative. Cooperative have made the mistake, should own up - and repay all card fees paid by customers, where the card used was a genuine Visa Electron.

I've spoken in length to Visa International on numerous occasions - and Visa Electron is not being discontinued, and is used extensively in Europe, not just the UK. Uk Card Processing Terminals would still need to accept European Visa Electron Cards. The bullshtt about Visa Electron being discontinued is being fed by UK Banks/others to artificially remove this payment method, but according to Visa it is not the case it is being discontinued.

The fact that there isn't a regulatory body that will take this on - UK Card Payments Services, FO, OFT, FSA means these banks have a free reign on small individual amounts but affecting all customers, through technical system changes to boost profits to shaft their customers good and proper.

chexum

tightarsey wrote: »

How many people realise placing a £10 bet on the Grand National this year with your Credit Card through Ladbrokes/online betting company with cost you interest from the transaction date and a £5 cash advance fee when you get your statement. Is this your so called 'without malice' technical incompetence? - (Capital one Credit Cards).

Indeed, for quite some time I assumed that betting (cash-equivalent) transactions are more expensive because it lets the merchant get the full amount of money, but then I learned it's not different - for example, Barclaycard is reportedly more "friendly" towards these types of merchants, and considers these transactions purchases - I'm not willing to test or vouch for them though. All the charges that you mention are based on the type of the merchant, and swallowed by the banks.

tightarsey wrote: »

I've spoken in length to Visa International on numerous occasions - and Visa Electron is not being discontinued, and is used extensively in Europe, not just the UK. Uk Card Processing Terminals would still need to accept European Visa Electron Cards. The bullshtt about Visa Electron being discontinued is being fed by UK Banks/others to artificially remove this payment method, but according to Visa it is not the case it is being discontinued.

That's good to know, but banks have a much greater say about the spread of the technology. No matter how hard Visa/MC "invents", the banks will have the final word - for instance, I'm sure the banks that are not jumping on the bandwagon for contactless payments are just waiting for a better offer from the scheme, and never actually consider the safety of their customers.

As the real clients of Visa/Mastercard/Amex are the banks, it's in their best interest to push the technology which provides the highest share of their customers' transactions. In the sense that it had to be a business decision, you're right that they wanted to increase the income by getting rid of the electronic scheme, but I don't think we can prove they expected the extra income by confusing the customers, just because they appear to profit it from now (but they lose just as much if the customers call their agents and complain).

tightarsey wrote: »

The fact that there isn't a regulatory body that will take this on - UK Card Payments Services, FO, OFT, FSA means these banks have a free reign on small individual amounts but affecting all customers, through technical system changes to boost profits to shaft their customers good and proper.

I see the basic way of how charges set by the schemes and banks and their way of preventing other payment methods/providers as the main problem (and not the minor business mis-steps they make when navigating around the current fee structure set by larger players). This is why I'm kind of glad with Which's attempt to complain about the way merchants force some of these costs to us. However, I'm not convinced we will be better off with the results...

With free banking, it sounds reasonable that someone needs to pay for the costs of infrastructure, but not all countries even in Europe has such a free banking as the UK do, but the card schemes and banks are (mostly) global - which makes it appear that a large part of the world can be forced to cope with even more charges...