Help with Parent's money

monkeyspanner

Errata wrote: »

Just a slight correction. Around £23000 is when the LA starts to contribute towards the weekly care home fee. This contribution tapers until around £12000 is reached, at which point the LA's contribution covers all the weekly fee.

Under the lower savings limit of £23250 (in England) the Council Social Services will assist with funding but only to their maximum level of funding for each care level band.
See this link http://www.devon.gov.uk/fs10e_paying_for_long_term_care_061010.pdf for Devon County Council maximum funding bands which range from £295 to £391 per week for residential care across 4 care bands, and £416 or £427 for nursing care. I believe you can see from these figures why a 3rd party top-up to fees might be required and why a care home might not be such a good business if you have to rely only on council funded residents. I say 3rd party top-up because the resident is not allowed to pay this top-up. You can also understand why some care homes recently took their council to court for setting their support band levels so low that the homes were in danger of going out of business

In addition all council supported residents are expected to contribute the bulk of their weekly income except a weekly allowance of £22.30/week. This includes state and private pensions. So all residents even those with no savings self-fund their care partially by handing over the bulk of their state pensions.

In addition to their income residents with savings of between £14250 and £23250 are assessed as having a notional "tariff income" of £1/week for every £250 in savings between these two figures i.e. a maximum "tariff income" of £48/week which is subtracted from the councils contribution. So the residents savings could reduce by around £2500/year due to the tariff income. IMHO this is rediculous as it assumes you can get 20% income on savings.

So if we take a fairly reasonably priced care home charging £450 a week in Devon and a resident assessed at care level 3 who has £23000 in savings and relies solely on their state pension the funding would be as follows:

Care home fees £450
Made up from
3rd party top-up £120 (DCC support for care level3 £330)
Residents contribution £122.35 (State pension £97.65 less allowance £22.30 + tariff income of £47)
Council SS contribution £207.65

Obviously this is oversimplified but gives you the basic idea. You will also note it is in the council interest to understate the care needs assessment as this resident if assessed at care level 4 would more than halve the 3rd party top-up required and increase the councils contribution by nearly 30%.

For more detail have a look at this fact sheet
http://www.counselandcare.org.uk/category/advice/pdf/care-home-fees---paying-them-in-england-guide-16

Errata

That's a really helpful post MS. Residents should also claim Attendance Allowance which will contribute to the cost of the weekly fee.

pollypenny

Yet another thread where someone is trying to get us - the taxpayers to pay for their parents' care, so that they can inherit.

OP, my husband and I have tried to give our two the best start in life, university and help with house-purchase etc. However, we are now retired and enjoying our lives.

If we need to go into a care home we will will pay and the kids have zilch to inherit - tough!

I do not want to pay for your parents, thank -you.

Claire14

Thanks for the help, particularly Monkeyspanner!
I dont want to diddle anybody and as a tax payer myself, realise I would be paying for the care as well. It is just a very confusing situation and never having had to do it before, a bit traumatic. Everyone has horror stories about care and paying for it, I just wanted some advice, thats all.
It is very hard to sit back and watch the hard-earned money that they have made over a lifetime, just go in carehome fees.
I simply wondered if there was an alternative that might help out the grandchildren in their futures.

pollypenny

I understand where you are coming from, Claire.

However, when you are on a pension yourself and still seem to pay a heck of a lot tax, it's galling to find those who are trying to evade responsibility to pay for themselves.

Yes, in some dream world, everyone would pass on their 'hard-earned money' to their offspring.

Your parents nay never need to go into a care home anyway. Be optimistic.

Savvy_Sue

Claire14 wrote: »

It is very hard to sit back and watch the hard-earned money that they have made over a lifetime, just go in carehome fees.

another way to look at it - and I really don't mean to get at you with this - is that word 'just'.

They've worked hard for their money, as did my parents. Dad said he wanted to go into a home and just be 'looked after': he was tired and fed up, and he would have been happy to pay whatever it took. Actually we think he'd have hated it, and as Mum wouldn't countenance it, it didn't happen.

Mum's now on her own, and still doesn't want to move out of her home. However, IF it gets to the stage where she can't look after herself, even with carers coming in (another thing she won't contemplate!) I'd rather see everything she has go to a good care home than see her unhappy or not well cared for. And no, she's not coming to live with me or any of my siblings (which would be a whole other thread).

Now, one reason why I'd rather see it all go to a good care home is that I know what looking after her would be like, and trust me, it wouldn't be much fun. She's deaf and cantakerous, and that's unlikely to change. She won't be 'easy'. If she doesn't like someone, she'll find some reason why she can't hear what they're saying: they'll have an accent / moustache / too quiet a voice. She will gossip, backbite, and take pleasure in the misfortunes of others. So the staff caring for her will earn every penny of their miserable wages. And yes, on the whole they ARE miserable wages, for antisocial hours.

Now, if your parents are sweet and good-natured all day long, you may feel my comments are unjustified. But think about this: they'll need care, more than can be provided in their own home (otherwise you'd keep them there, right?) Personal care. Toilet and bathing care. Help with dressing. Help with eating. The kind of care they gave you when you were a baby, only it won't ease off over the years, it will get worse.

So, do you not think the staff providing this care are worth paying a decent wage to? Do you not think there should be a high staff to patient ratio during the day, and more than one person on duty at night? And do you not think those staff will be working hard, like your parents did?

I do, and one of the questions I'd be asking any care home would be what those ratios were like, and how many of their staff were on minimum wage, and how many were qualified and paid more than that, and what their staff turnover was like.

I'll get off my soapbox now, shall I?

monkeyspanner

pollypenny wrote: »

Yet another thread where someone is trying to get us - the taxpayers to pay for their parents' care, so that they can inherit.

OP, my husband and I have tried to give our two the best start in life, university and help with house-purchase etc. However, we are now retired and enjoying our lives.

If we need to go into a care home we will will pay and the kids have zilch to inherit - tough!

I do not want to pay for your parents, thank -you.

I don't think you need to worry about paying for someones parents care home fees via your taxes except if they have no assets. With government finances as they are it is entirely unlikely that a more generous system will be provided by the state.

Often these questions are prompted by the parent fretting about losing their assets and the children trying to put their minds at ease, not by the children wanting to inherit.

It is as Claire says an extremely complicated and confusing system and little or no assistance is provided by the state employees charged with administering the system. I my MIL's case I obtained more information from charities and the council financial department than my MIL's "care manager".

My primary questions regarding the current system are:
1. Why does a "self-funding" care home resident usually pay more for the same services than a council support resident. Or put it another way why are councils allowed to effectively use self-funders fees to subsidise the residents they support?
2. Why are the council care support levels set at a level which prevents care homes from providing a decent level of service?

Both these effects should cause you some concern as you wisely intend to use your money for providing the best life style for yourselves.

Errata

MS - I can only answer your first question. Care Homes offer a reduced fee to councils in order to obtain and keep their business which for some Homes ensures they are financially viable and there are as few empty bed spaces as possible. Economies of scale, just like any other business.

My personal view on your second question is that a 'decent level of service' is a bit subjective, but service levels are monitored by both the LA and the Care Quality Commission. If standards need to be improved, it's the CQC that should be lobbied hard, not the LA or an individual home.

monkeyspanner

Errata wrote: »

MS - I can only answer your first question. Care Homes offer a reduced fee to councils in order to obtain and keep their business which for some Homes ensures they are financially viable and there are as few empty bed spaces as possible. Economies of scale, just like any other business.

My personal view on your second question is that a 'decent level of service' is a bit subjective, but service levels are monitored by both the LA and the Care Quality Commission. If standards need to be improved, it's the CQC that should be lobbied hard, not the LA or an individual home.

Thanks

It does concern me when I hear that some care homes particularly the larger multiple companies operate on a model of less than £1 per day for food for each residents.

Errata

I hadn't heard that, and would think it would be a matter of commercial confidentiality. The CQC inspectors ask for sight of menus, and although I don't have the hightest regard for them, I suspect they're pretty good at costing per head per day catering costs as demonstrated in the menus and clearly £1 per head per day is way outside of life sustaining nourishment.
Having said that, the catering costs are kept as low as possible both in Care Homes and in NHS hospitals.