Are dog runs and muzzles cruel or a necessity when you have children in the garden?

blue_monkey_2

We have a dog trainer and his rules is that no child, under 10, is ever to be left with a dog. We have a pup (4 months now) that is really angsty and she has growled and snapped at my son, also she has growled at DH when he removed her from a chair she had sneaked up on and also me when I've stopped her doing something she wants to do.

We ensure that the children are NEVER in the room with the dogs alone now. I know we are working on her and she is not like it all the time but it is hard to judge whether today is the day she is going to be tetchy - however I am extremely concious that it only take the one time for a bite to be fatal and I am now a tad nervous about the kids and dogs being together, alone.

However my quesiton relates to this - very soon the back door will be open and the kids will be in and out of the garden playing. We have a huge garden and it will be impossible for me to police when the kids are out there, sometimes all day from morning til dusk and now I've been worrying about it so need to get my head straight. I also have the worry that if other peoples children come to play that she might snap at them too.

So we have been talking tonight about a run that is 10'x10' and 1.5m high or one that is 12'x12' and 1.5 high, but that has shelter too if it is hot. It has a door that locks so the kids cannot get in there to touch the dogs also. DH has said maybe it is too small but it would only be used when the kids are out there playing and they want to be out and I cannot be out there.

I also have thought that maybe she could be muzzled while in the garden instead - rather safe than sorry - would this be the better option to ensure the kids are safe but the dgos still have the freedom of the garden? At least I would know they are safe them and it would set my mind at rest.

I just wondered what other people thought about this please. Last year we never even considered it, our older dog is a very hyper but is very tolerant with the children, the newer one not so much. She loves people and wants to be stroked but only on her terms and when she feels like it otherwise grrrr, leave me alone. our trainer told us we have to take her and stroke her many times in the day which I do - she has growled at me many a time when doing this but I just reprimand her for it and carry on. But.... it only takes the once for the kids to run too fast or scream too loud when she is having an off day and 'snap'. And then it might be too late. I just want to do the responsible thing.

Caroline_a

This is a difficult one. When my ex moved in with me he brought his GSD, a very pretty longhair, but excessively nervous. My children were around 4 and 6, and I could never ever leave her with them. She would leap up barking when they ran into the lounge - her face was on a level with theirs, so a bite would have been dreadful on that level. I was always able to control her, but it wore my nerves to a frazzle as I always had to have my wits on high alert. The children weren't afraid of her at all, it was more that she was nervous with them.

Eventually we asked my ex's mum to take her as it was just too much, and she didnt seem to be getting any better, despite me spending a lot of time socialising etc. Six months later (at the young age of 5) she was diagnosed with advanced cancer and pts. I often wonder if she had been in pain, but that wouldnt have made it any better had she bitten one of the girls or their friends.

You can use muzzles and separate her in a run, but I would say that won't make matters any better - that is just accepting that the dog has a problem, and will make socialisation less likely. My advice would be to find your pup a home where she can have a one-to-one relationship with an experienced owner with no children. Probably not what you want to hear, but I've been where you are, and much as I love my dogs, my children always come first.

ali-t

Personally I think the run is a better option if you don't mind the financial investment. Staffy's are pretty hyper and although mine is really calm now as a pup she would have been in her element chasing squealing children around and causing mayhem. Having a run allows the dog to be outside, be around squealing, arm waving, shouty, fast moving children but the dog is safe and so are the children. You are doing your best to teach your children how to behave around dogs but not everyone else will.

I don't think muzzles are more than a short term solution but the run can be an extension of the dogs crate whch is a safe place.

blue_monkey_2

Hi ali-t, I hope you are well and had a nice Xmas. I posted an update on the pup. She is still growling and snappy. I am just trying to work out what to do for the best for the dogs and the kids.

This is only my 2nd dog ever, yes the first is nuts but I guess we got spoilt and I assumed all staffys would be the same and lovely around children. I guess not.

No, we do not mind paying the money, you have to do the right thing whatever it costs, don't you.

Maybe I am just having a crap day today, another snapping incident, just feeling fed up with it now as I can never switch off - feeling like this is forcing my hand to make a 'choice'. I've posted a message on the other thread, hopefully sarabe can set my mind at rest. My gog trainer did not get back to me so I guess he is busy, you know sometimes you just have to know what to do for the best. Thanks for listening.

Oh, and on top of all that I am ashamed to say we got shafted on the 'pedigree' as all the documents they showed us were fake and the dogs were not registered. They took in me, my husband and my friend as I wanted to be sure I got everything right. Still not sure what to do, KC told me to 'send a letter' and were not interested at all. I've not told my husband yet.... he'll want to go and knock his head off!! Feel like this is my punishment for not doing things properly but my friiend told me that even she was taken in and she has a pedigree dog already so it was not my fault it happened.

MaximumImpact

I have 2 Giant Breed dogs. They love my children and have never, ever shown them any aggression. Would I ever leave my children alone or out of my sight with them....Not in a million years.

Dogs are wild animals at heart and cannot be trusted. Children don't understand that dogs are wild animals and children cannot be trusted.

When my children are in the garden , the dogs aren't and vice versa.

Muzzles can be slipped so the best bet is not to ever leave them alone together.

Your dog trainer sounds a sensible guy to me, how many dogs would still be around today if their owners had followed his rules?

ali-t

Oh Claire, you sound like you are having a really tough time. Pups are really hard work and tbh I don't know how I would manage with a demanding and high maintenance pup if I had children too.

I just saw the other thread and think you are getting a hard time, it is really frustrating when you are trying to do your best but you don't see much impact. My own view is that like parenting, there are different methods of bringing up/training dogs and the main thing is consistency rather than specifics of techniques.

Again this is just my view but if the run is near the children, the dog(s) can become more sensitised to the childrens noise and movements.

You will get through this, persistence and consistency are the key. You can do it!!

kittypimms

Just a quick thought on this from a training view. When a dog growls, it is giving a warning. The next warning will be increased growling, then nipping, snapping or (at worst) a bite. hence growling should never be ignored or punished. If your dog is telling you it is unhappy (by growling) immediatley stop touching it, and move away quietly - without looking at or speaking to the dog - you do not want to punish this behaviour, but to say "it's ok, I understand you are uncomfortable" (but in dog body language!)

I never approach or touch a dog which has shown discomfort at being touched - and if they approach me I will only touch/ stroke, fuss slightly. A god tip is that dogs are not always keen on being petted on the head - try the shoulders (calming) or upper back or chest instead.

Ask the children to completely (and I mean completely!) ignore the dog - no looking at, touching, or talking to, until she is more comfortable with them. Why not get her a large crate for the communal areas - lounge etc, where she can go to feel safe and hide (my dogs use theirs as nests, and it is "their" quiet space, where no-one else will go, and they can snooze/ have a treat etc).

Baskerville (basket type) muzzles can be used, but agree with the posters above that you should keep her away from overexcited children - dogs will pick up the excitement, and want to join in. If she has poor bite inhibition (though I guess with having a trainer you've probably worked on this), she could cause a skin breaking injury in excitement/ play.

Sorry, just a few random thoughts - I've got a rotter of a headache!! I send lots of sympathy - I have 2 large rescue dogs here, one who 12 months ago had a complete fear of being touched (and is now sat cuddling up to me!), and another with a fear of children (we're getting there) . I only like the broken ones lol!!

Good Luck - you sound like you want to do the best by your pup. And I hope this has made sense!!!
KxP

blue_monkey_2

Thank you ali. Yes, I spoke to the trainer again tonight and he said that I WILL do this because I am making so much effort and want to do this, I am doing 1:1 instead of classes so I get more of his time and can understand things better (I guess I have a touch of what my son has, I find I drift sometimes when people are talking). He said that the pup is possibly trying to play with the children but all I am hearing is the growl. Unless he sees it he cannot tell but I should bear this in mind also. I guess it makes sense. We always used to 'rough play' with the other dog and she is great around the kids but we have been uber paranoid around this dog and do not rough play at all, we discourage it in fact.

In regards to outside he has said that if the dogs are calm and I am outside then they can be out there, rough play, excitment and fence running around the kids has to be stopped, as if the children are excited and the dogs are excited, it is not a good mix. I feel better than I did this morning, my friend also said that some days she gets fed up that nothing seems to be going to plan but then she has to remember how far she has come, and I think this is what I needed, to realise that actually, I have done some fantastic work with both dogs. I fact, last week at training I got a prize for the best positions (LOL, that sounds rude) so I know I can do this.

The other problem we have is next doors dog, it yap, yap yaps all the time we are outside and when it starts we usually bring our dogs in because otherwise they fence run (although it is high and blocked they still do it), he said we have to leave them out there and they have to learn to ignore the other dog so they do not do it - and if their dog continues to yap ours should be able to turn a blind eye. That is going to be a challenge.

I really am putting everything into this so yes, I probably got a bit snappy as I just wanted advice but people are telling me what to do - fair enough if they are local to come and do the job, but they aren't and this is working for us. Now they can go from jumping up to me staying 'stop' and they have both bottoms on their beds within 5 seconds. This is massive for us as people could not even get in the house without being leapt on.

These are my first dogs and I am so keen on getting it right I guess I ask too many questions and make it more complicated for myself, I also think that woman telling me that she would attack my children has made me super, super paranoid and I am trying now to focus on the GOOD thing I HAVE done so far. My MIL turned to me and said 'all I have to do now is learn to control my son'. I felt like saying 'all you have to do is learn about autism', but I kept my tongue intact!! I hope things are good with you and yours.

blue_monkey_2

kittypimms wrote: »

Just a quick thought on this from a training view. When a dog growls, it is giving a warning. The next warning will be increased growling, then nipping, snapping or (at worst) a bite. hence growling should never be ignored or punished. If your dog is telling you it is unhappy (by growling) immediatley stop touching it, and move away quietly - without looking at or speaking to the dog - you do not want to punish this behaviour, but to say "it's ok, I understand you are uncomfortable" (but in dog body language!)

I never approach or touch a dog which has shown discomfort at being touched - and if they approach me I will only touch/ stroke, fuss slightly. A god tip is that dogs are not always keen on being petted on the head - try the shoulders (calming) or upper back or chest instead. To be honest, she is fine with being petted on the head, she is sleeping beside me right now and I can touch her without any reaction. We have been told not to take her by surprise which is what may have happened with the children, but she just loves being touched. I do practice vet checks so there is not really anywhere she is uncomfortable with.

Ask the children to completely (and I mean completely!) ignore the dog - no looking at, touching, or talking to, until she is more comfortable with them. Why not get her a large crate for the communal areas - lounge etc, where she can go to feel safe and hide (my dogs use theirs as nests, and it is "their" quiet space, where no-one else will go, and they can snooze/ have a treat etc). We already have this and we already do this, they do not tend to be fussy, fussy over a dog like they would in the street, they are always there and they have been told to call her before touching so she knows they are coming and usually she goes to them.

Baskerville (basket type) muzzles can be used, but agree with the posters above that you should keep her away from overexcited children - dogs will pick up the excitement, and want to join in. If she has poor bite inhibition (though I guess with having a trainer you've probably worked on this), she could cause a skin breaking injury in excitement/ play. Yes, this was suggested tonight as it goes.

Sorry, just a few random thoughts - I've got a rotter of a headache!! I send lots of sympathy - I have 2 large rescue dogs here, one who 12 months ago had a complete fear of being touched (and is now sat cuddling up to me!), and another with a fear of children (we're getting there) . I only like the broken ones lol!! Bless, you, where would they go otherwise though. Random thoughts are always good ones.

Good Luck - you sound like you want to do the best by your pup. And I hope this has made sense!!!
KxP

Thank you and yes, perfect sense. I am so paranoid about her biting the kids (someone said something to me about her attacking the children, before I even got her) that I think I am being too paranoid and need to look at the situation as it is. I was also told instead of picking her up and putting her on the floor from the chair I have to give the Off command otherwise she is not going to learn it. Seems obvious now really.

CFC

Poor Bluemonkey, try not to take it all too seriously and get completely nuts. Apart from anything else Mutt may pick up on that and it could make the situation worse.

Remember these things and be a bit less paranoid:

A silent biter is far worse than a growly grumbler
Growly grumblers are telling you they don't like what is happening - well just like kids they have to learn that 'tough'!!
Dogs are like kids but never grow up, and just like kids they will look to see what they can get away with and test the limits
Dogs are individuals, some are sunny smilers, some just like to complain
Children have to respect dogs, and dogs have to learn to obey (however reluctant)
Your basic training is going well, so I am sure that everything will come right in time, and if it doesn't, you will have done everything possible to make it work out
You probably don't own a secretly rabid child killing puppy who is planning to murder you all in your beds when he is grown up...

Youdontseeme

I think my previous post on your other thread was less than helpful.

A) Forget she's a STB, she's a dog. If she was a Shitsu or King Charles Spaniel, you wouldnt be freaking out, her bread is doing it for you.
Your pup is young there is not much that has been done, that cant be undone.
C) She is a STB which means she is going to be a powerful pup, which means this behaviour does have to under control, just like if she was a Lab, a boxer, GSD or whatever, don't let her bread freak you out.
D) I implore you, if you have it, to SKy+ Its me or the dog, and see the difference in the effectiveness between the old (UK series) and new (US series) you can actually see the dogs, and owners getting it!!! Worth £10000000 of dog trainers.
E) Personally (and it is a very personal pointof view) every child, if possible needs a dog, a K9 friend, someone to talk to when the parents are p*ssing you off. I realise these days there is a lot of the 'never leave a child and a dog in the same room' guff but a reasonably well trained dog,and a reasonably well trained child at 7 or 8, there should be no problem. According to the old sinny films (yes I am that old) I learnt to walk by grabbing on to my grandparents blind labs coat (im sure I would have got there myself eventually!!) but that dog taught me so much more.

Dont give up, see how it goes, but if you get to the dog run and muzzle stage then it might be time to rehome, it dosent mean your not a good owner, just not picked the right dog (ie. getting fake papers, you don't know any breeding probs etc.)

I do wish you all the luck in the world.

YDSM

PS: http://positively.com
PLEASE take a look, even copy your question from here and post it there and see what response you get, after all its free, and it just might (in fact probably) will work!!