The need for skills support for students- a worrying development.

Heth_2

Going back to maths, at the moment I am teaching an extra maths class a week for some masters students in my department. Some don't have a level maths, others do have as level. This is a scientific masters and most of these students are finding basic fractions a struggle. I was very shocked by this, as well as by the total lack of initiative of these students. I realise that the lecturer for this course doesn't appear to be very good (the lectures are in the maths department, so I don't know the person giving them) but they are showing no initiative to get some books from the library and teach themselves the basics they need to know to tackle the problem sheets. They do seem to expect to be spoon fed it all by the lecturer, and as he/she is not doing that by me. In some cases I feel they have just given the problem set a glance and decided it was too difficult without even trying.

So while I think it is good that the uni is providing extra tutorials for these students, I really think the work ethic some have is terrible.

studentphil

Heth, I have used self teach Maths books and they are not much good(IMO). I think maths is one of these things that does need a teacher to explain it. Of course they should be having some go at the course worksheets even if they can not get much of it right.

studentphil

It is easy not to work though as you you need to structure the study yourself. It is very hard to do work you may have no motivativation for and that you find hard if it is not very structured I find.

Heth_2

studentphil wrote:

Heth, I have used self teach Maths books and they are not much good(IMO). I think maths is one of these things that does need a teacher to explain it. Of course they should be having some go at the course worksheets even if they can not get much of it right.

In alot of the cases though it wasn't a question of self teaching, but them revising stuff they should have learnt at school, like adding basic fractions (and I mean basic, 2/3 + 1/2 sort of thing). I think the best way to learn maths is by solving examples and certainly the a level text I borrowed from a friend when I started doing these tutorials is pretty clear so I don't think it would be beyond people with a degree to use initiative and try harder. They are afterall paying hefty tuition fees to do this masters, they aren't students in their 1st year of an undergrad degree.

cupid_s

studentphil wrote:

One of the big problems with lecturers is they do not give enough time to marking and feedback in some cases. They write a few notes done the side, they are good at the critical and finding the error, but then offer very little in way of comment on improvement.

One of the big problems with students is they get a mark and if they aren't happy with the feedback they complain to friends/other lecturers and other markers instead of going to the person who marked it and asking for more feedback.

How much spare time to you reckon lecturers have? They are not paid extra to do marking and have to fit it in around lectures, research, writing grant proposals, giving seminars and loads of other things. I have done paid marking before and have been paid for 10 mins per script which is just about enough time to read it and allocate a mark. If I were to make comments I would need 20-30 mins per report at least and there is not the money to allow for this.

fatnan

I totally agree that many students expect to be spoon-fed and show appalling lack of initiative in helping themselves. Surely, by the time a student is at HE level the lecturer should be able to assume the student has at least some knowledge of literacy and numeracy. Sadly, this is often not the case.

studentphil

cupid_stunt wrote:

One of the big problems with students is they get a mark and if they aren't happy with the feedback they complain to friends/other lecturers and other markers instead of going to the person who marked it and asking for more feedback.

How much spare time to you reckon lecturers have? They are not paid extra to do marking and have to fit it in around lectures, research, writing grant proposals, giving seminars and loads of other things. I have done paid marking before and have been paid for 10 mins per script which is just about enough time to read it and allocate a mark. If I were to make comments I would need 20-30 mins per report at least and there is not the money to allow for this.

To mark a report or an essay and to do it right, there is no way a really productive job can be done in 10 mins. So maybe that is something universities need to address. Equally the system could not do with every student demanding a one to one chat for 15- 30 mins per essay.
Maybe the lecturer, student ratio needs to decrease to allow more time for teaching duties as lecturers work loads would be cut.

(That is in my exerperience of how long it takes to get feed back,15-30 mins per essay in a meeting)

cupid_s

studentphil wrote:

To mark a report or an essay and to do it right, there is no way a really productive job can be done in 10 mins. So maybe that is something universities need to address. Equally the system could not do with every student demanding a one to one chat for 15- 30 mins per essay.
Maybe the lecturer, student ratio needs to decrease to allow more time for teaching duties as lecturers work loads would be cut.

(That is in my exerperience of how long it takes to get feed back,15-30 mins per essay in a meeting)

The thing is that not all students will actually go to the effort of arranging a meeting to go over an essay. On my course there were only a handful of students who, if we did not understand something or disagreed with marknig would go to the lecturer and ask. For the rest it just wasn;t worth their effort for the small increase in marks they may get next time.

Many people on your course will just accept they did not do that well and not even be bothered about finding ways to improve for next time. Most students aren't as conscientious as you and me.

By giving everyone so much feedback all the students know exactly where they've gone wrong there is no way of distinguishing those who are simply following instructions, and those who have gone out of their way to find out how to do better, and it's those people who deserve the better marks as they actually care more.

The way it stands at the moment you are benefitting cos you get feedback by bothering to arrange meetings and asking specifically for opinions on our work and so you'll work on the problem areas and therefore improve. The other people on your course, who could go to the lecturer if they wanted to but honestly wont bother, are the ones who will suffer and this will only serve to make you look better - which is always good surely?

studentphil

Cupid, I suppose you are right that most people do not attempt to get feedback or even read wirten feedback as it is all the mark some want.

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There is always an issue in Arts subjects anyway that there are never enough copies of books in the library(even the refence non- take out copy is missing sometimes). That certainly is a limit to doing your own research. It is not so bad as there is JSOR and anthology texts which offer some access to the texts you want or something similar, but sometimes you really do need one book if it is a very written about topic. That is often a problem why students maybe dont read as widely as is hoped.

cupid_s

Maybe you could contact the library, or the head of your department and ask that they liaise with each other with regards to the library stocking all the core texts and papers and recommend reading on the reading lists and having at least one reference copy that cannot be taken out. I understand it can get so frustrating and it's the library's fault. And why should you have to do this anyway? They should do this as standard cos it's just common sense.

Or maybe you could get sneaky and regularly pop along to see lecturers for feedback on an essay or something, and while you're there try to find out upcoming projects and get all the books first!

You can request the items if they're out and they then have to be returned within 2 days or soething. But this doesn't help if 10 people are on the list waiting for it and you only have 2 weeks to do the essay.