If push comes to shove...?

cootambear

GreyQueen wrote: »

I've been allotmenteering (is that a word?!) for 5 years now, 2 years on the waiting list sharing someone else's plot and 3 years on my own, hauling it back from dereliction. I don't make a fuss over buying organic veg when I shop as I don't have enough cash to pay a premium price but there's no way that I will use chemicals on my lottie. The place is heaving with amphibians (frogs, toads, common newts) and when you're getting down close and personal with your soil you can see the mini-beasts, the spiders, the worms and the grubs. I'm sure being chemical-free is making a difference. For example, last summer when the runner beans were in flower, I was talking to a neighbour from a couple of plots away. He was lamenting that there were no bees pollinating his beans, that he was having to mist them with the hose to get the flowers to set. I was baffled as my beans were no more than 20 metres from his. We walked down; mine were heaving with bumble bees (several species) and even honey bees, which have just re-appeared after a 2 year gap. Guess which of us was using chemicals?

I don't want to get into the GM argument too deeply because I consider that I am not sufficiently educated on the science to do the debate credit. However, some people may not know that the leading GM manufacturer is Monsanto, formerly famous for producing the defoliant Agent Orange which was dumped on the jungles of south-east asia a few decades ago. I'm sure you can find pictures of the birth defects thus caused on the web. The ecosystems which were sprayed have not recovered to this day.

My own stance is this; we need to look after the planet as best we can, to live as lightly as we can, or homo sapiens as the species at the top of the food chain will be the worst affected.

The world is littered with the remains of cities and countries and even empires whose names are known only to a few historians, if known at all. Behind it all, you will find environmental degradation, silting of harbours, salination of fields, deforestation and the blithe assumption that people could breed as many children as they liked and take, take, take and never pay the bill.

We've only got the one planet and if we trash it through greed, stupidity and carelessness, when we know how to live better, then maybe our own mass extinction will be no more than justice.

So, be of stout heart and true, get down with those veggies, no matter how small scale it is, and keep your soil in good heart. Building the soil is the way to sustainable food supplies.

Wow from food price spikes to the fall of civilisations!

Vast topic, so I will only make a few points. Civilisations.

I. Many have risen and fallen.Some, like easter island fell when their little island reached its technological limit and could develop no further after its trees ran out
2. some were invaded
3. some, like the roman empire, hit a social roadblock through clinging on to the ineffcient slave mode of production versus mechanisation, wage labour, technological innovation.
4. how did the empires of s america fall, some to only 300 spaniards?
One anthopolgist tried to work how europe came to dominate the world, he would not accept that black people were less intelligent. His book, guns germs and steel` was made in to a documentary , it is a great piece of work.
in summary
a. the vast eurasian continent held most of the world domesticatable animals, and some of its important grain crops. this enabled a burst in population, which, together with readily available iron ore and coal, and the information that redily passed eat and west meant that weapons like muskets and swords could be easily made.a trained spaniard with steel on a horse was a devasting weapon.europeans rose because they had many children and therefore there societies were able to rise up from food grubbery.
b.due to close living with livestock, europeans developed resistance to diseases that wiped out 95% of some cultures eg cowpox protects against smallpox.
The south americans had no such social/technological advances and consequently the civilsation fell.

Continous growth in population and the technical innovation that follows is the key to maintaining and developing civilisation.

2. Monsanta

I think we all need to get in to the GM argument. If the greens has their way gm would not progress and their predictions of food scarcity would be a self fulfilling prophecy. If monsanto get their way they will continue to monopolise gm technology and make gm much more expensive than it should be. Work is progressing to devlop gm trechnology in india and china which I very much welcome.

The vietnam war chemical warfare is horrific. also horrific was the tonnage of bombs used, greater than that of ww2. chemical weapons are still used as a method of terror. the us government sells phosphorous bombs to the israelis to kill civilians. there is little more horrific than phosphorous sticking to the skin of a baby, burrowing its way down and burning through its bone.

Nor is it recent, Churchill said `I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes`.

As a chemical company monsato profited from the war. Like all capitalist companies its duty is to its shareholders. It is a non sequitor that all its products are evil. Monsata did not cause the war - US imperialism did. it was they who ordered the chemicals. The chemicals were the result of, not the cause of the war and deforestation.

3. I am in favour of conservation, to a point. the point is where it benefits humaity, not denigrates it. Fish stocks need protecting, and techology like fish farms can help this. Endangered species need protecting because they contribute to the beauty of the world. only human beings can appreciate beauty. Forestry needs protecting because barren hills cause mudslides. Of course infrastructure needs developing to, to reduce deaths from natural disasters. That means roads.

Mass extiction

I believe there are 4 scenarios

a. ww3. as long as economic rivalries exist between nation states then tensions are inevitable. it is therefore a social and technological problem. nuclear fission thenn fusion would ease global oil tensions.
b. viral. a killer flu could conceivably kill 20% of the world population. faced with such calamity, the civilisations that would survive would be those who had the best infrastructues in place hospitals, roads for food supplies etc. The solution is therefore resources, more affluence.
c. killer asteroid. the chances of it happeing tommorow are vanishingly small but it will happen evetually. the solution is to develop the technology to protect the earth from space. We could also colonise mars, not just to spread life, but as a safety net.
d. green policies

maybe our own mass extinction will be no more than justice.

there is no justice in nature. what harm have bumblebees done to be struck down by a fungal infection? what harm has a gazelle done to be gobbled alive by jackals? what harm have little babies done to be blinded by a parasite because they lack clean water?

what harm did the dinosaurs do to be wiped out by an asteroid? their failing was in not harnessing the laws of nature to build planetary defences.

the greens hope to destroy civilisation. they oppose every attempt to make the world a better place. they think that human beings are rattish breeders.

if civilation fell they think we would return to the mythical rural idyll. The reality of this in the early days would be death by starvation of the old and infants, disease as the dead pollute water supplies. famine. murder for food. cannabliism.

The handful of survivors would then be faced with a life the was nasty brutish and short. where a bad winter would destroy their little tribe were disease would roam unchecked. where ordinary ailments like bad teeth would poison them to death. where life expentacy would be 25 at best. where children would be born and die ignorant. where the painting of the great artists would be burned as fuel.

I do not want that, and I think the insidous growth of green ideas that are beginning to permeate the top levels of government is the greatest danger we face.

long live civilisations. long live (and a long life) to human beings. long live our exploration of the wonders of nature. salute the magnificent milestone of 7b sentient beings, and forward to many billions to come.

the veggies can chew carrots to their hearts content for all I care. just so long as they don`t destroy the planet.

BTW I love your signature.

[Deleted User]

cootambear, it might be better if you took your views for discussion to the discussion board

dreaming

I have to admit to being a bit bewildered by all the arguments for and against GM foods and just about everything else as well that seems to be going on at the moment. The problem (as I see it) is that and for every expert who I've seen saying it's all perfectly safe and the answer to food shortages etc., there is always another equally qualified, equally convincing expert who will say the exact opposite. Sometimes it seems that you have to make your mind up on almost a gut instinct. But maybe the problem is that we are expecting someone, somewhere to be able to "solve" all the world's problems, and of course what works for one area/country may be detrimental to another.
However, I have to say that I don't spend too much time worrying about it because I don't believe it will make too much difference in how I and my family eat, or can afford next week, next month, or next year. My feeling is that I have to do what I can with what I've got. My small garden is not going to allow me to be self-sufficient, but if the cost of food is going to increase, and the variety decrease, then I can at least grow a few things to supplement my diet and mitigate the expense as much as possible.
That sounds a lot like I am only concerned with myself, but I also see/hope that communities have a role to play as some people will be unable to do this due to physical infirmity/lack of space etc. and would welcome a community growing scheme. I would not mind giving a few hours a week for something along these lines to help those who can't help themselves, and I am sure there are a lot of like-minded people out there. It won't solve the world's problems. and may be akin to whistling in the wind, but maybe that's all we can do right now.
Personally I don't put too much faith in politicians as they seem only to do things for - well, political purposes, rather than for the good of the people. However, as I said I find it all very confusing and I'm not sure what I can do to make a big difference, so I just keep trying to make small differences here and there both to my life and to those around me.

Rummer

Well I have had a look at my garden and have discovered a few ways to squeeze more food in without taking up much more space. I was also eying up the driveway and thinking that could go if we really needed the growing space. I have also ordered a few different types of the same veg to see which take best in my garden so that I can experiment when things are not vital.

I have also found myself mentally planning other peoples gardens as I have walked past and noticed that there are very few people in my area that appear to grow fruit and veg however we are blessed with large gardens so plenty of opportunity should the need arise. What I do find frustrating is the amount of space we have that is just wasted as grass. Huge sections of where I stay are just vast areas of grass and it would be nice to see them planted with fruit trees.

At some point I remember there being a problem about fruit trees being grown on council land but I think it would be beneficial to the community to have food growing in public areas, do you know if you can approach councils regarding that?

cootambear

kittie wrote: »

cootambear, it might be better if you took your views for discussion to the discussion board

why?

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cootambear

Rummer wrote: »

Well I have had a look at my garden and have discovered a few ways to squeeze more food in without taking up much more space. I was also eying up the driveway and thinking that could go if we really needed the growing space. I have also ordered a few different types of the same veg to see which take best in my garden so that I can experiment when things are not vital.

I have also found myself mentally planning other peoples gardens as I have walked past and noticed that there are very few people in my area that appear to grow fruit and veg however we are blessed with large gardens so plenty of opportunity should the need arise. What I do find frustrating is the amount of space we have that is just wasted as grass. Huge sections of where I stay are just vast areas of grass and it would be nice to see them planted with fruit trees.

At some point I remember there being a problem about fruit trees being grown on council land but I think it would be beneficial to the community to have food growing in public areas, do you know if you can approach councils regarding that?

You can, theres probably a guerilla gardening group local to you that you can join.

I am guessing here, but I think councils may have been reluctant to grow fruit trees because of fruit falling that needs to be cleared up / cars skidding on pulp etc.

If you can convince the council that there will be plenty of you to pick the fruit you should win the argument. good luck!

GreyQueen

Rummer wrote: »

Well I have had a look at my garden and have discovered a few ways to squeeze more food in without taking up much more space. I was also eying up the driveway and thinking that could go if we really needed the growing space. I have also ordered a few different types of the same veg to see which take best in my garden so that I can experiment when things are not vital.

I have also found myself mentally planning other peoples gardens as I have walked past and noticed that there are very few people in my area that appear to grow fruit and veg however we are blessed with large gardens so plenty of opportunity should the need arise. What I do find frustrating is the amount of space we have that is just wasted as grass. Huge sections of where I stay are just vast areas of grass and it would be nice to see them planted with fruit trees.

At some point I remember there being a problem about fruit trees being grown on council land but I think it would be beneficial to the community to have food growing in public areas, do you know if you can approach councils regarding that?

Oh, Rummer, I so understand your comment about planning other people's gardens! I live in a flat, no outside space, no balcony, so my "garden" is the lottie, over a mile away. I'm astonished when I see people with large gardens, which get full sun and would be ideal for veggies, who leave them to scrubby grass or even pave them over. There's a lot of potential cropland within towns and cities which could be brought into service if necessary. It will be interesting to see if rising food prices cause this to happen. I've just borrowed Guerrilla Gardening; a manualfesto by David Tracey from the library, which has a lot of interesting stuff in it. Your Council may be able to do something re fruit-bearing trees, but an approach without the need for them to put in funding might be more likely to suceed in these straightened times. Or, if we're prepared to play the long game, a few apple cores etc lobbed into hedgerows might just survive and flourish.;)

[Deleted User]

I am going to explore equidistant planting this year. Joy Larkcom is in favour of it and after all it is about getting as many veg into a plot as possible eg 8" apart in rows 12" apart becomes 10" apart from each other in each direction

I have also found a kale, which I will name later, that grows pretty small and can be closely planted and the same for some cabbages. I did order some ormskirk savoy from ebay but I`ll only be planting two now as I am going to the likes of hispi and duncan. I think any research I might do this coming year will be about planting densities and trying to get more from the same area

I am going to put lots of layers on now and dh and I will brave the cold as we want to get two more linkabord beds in. He has already made some stakes to help keep them rigid so all we`ll have to do is click them together, place them, pin them in place and backfill from the paths, then we`ll cover the paths and beds with weed fabric.

COOLTRIKERCHICK

cootambear wrote: »

why?

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because you want people to bit back, you were doing the same on the daydream thread, but gave up as we were all too polite to give you what you wanted... an arguement etc..

When ever someone posts, you allways go off on a totally off the planet reply...If you want to really get into a debate about chemical, gm crops, and about planet/country distruction etc I should imagine they will love you over in the MSE Arms...you will prob have a lovely debate over there, where you will prob get people like you twisting and turning your posts just to get a reaction..

If you just ignore and do not reply to 'chemical cootambear's ' posts they will soon get board and move on to another thread somewhere...

Lotus-eater

COOLTRIKERCHICK wrote: »

If you just ignore and do not reply to 'chemical cootambear's ' posts they will soon get board and move on to another thread somewhere...

Am I allowed to call a fork a fork?

pleading liccle voice........"Why"

cos you're a figging idiot. And even on this board where we have our fair share, you stand out a mile.