If push comes to shove...?

amcluesent

The long-run sustainable global population is 2B. The current 6.5B is only possible due to massive use of artificial fertilizer made from oil. Everyone assume going past peak-oil will just mean switching to electric cars, in fact it means starvation for the majority of the world's peeps.

Sally_A

Lotus-eater wrote: »

I wish you luck, but you might have more success with Dandelion roots

Oops....obviously getting Nettle and Nestle as in Nescafe mixed up there :rotfl::rotfl:

cootambear

amcluesent wrote: »

The long-run sustainable global population is 2B. The current 6.5B is only possible due to massive use of artificial fertilizer made from oil. Everyone assume going past peak-oil will just mean switching to electric cars, in fact it means starvation for the majority of the world's peeps.

who says?

the same people who said the`sustainable` population was as low as 100m. they have upped their figures ever since.

malthusserism is the worst theory their has ever been. it has been proved wrong time and time again.

what is wrong with it in a nutshell? it takes todays limits and projects them into the future as if they were unalterable, ignoring innovation. 200 years ago, alarmists said our energy would fail because of `peak wood`.

It has always been the privileged classes blaming the poor for contemporary ills. the list of the scapegoats though the ages;

peasants breed too much
slavs breed too much
workers breed too much
jews breed too much
now its africans who breed too much

human life is not venerated, a child is now seen as another parasite to feed.

its disgusting.

Farway

Lotus-eater wrote: »

I wish you luck, but you might have more success with Dandelion roots

I am so old that I remember wartime rationing, and drinking dandelion coffee, which sometimes was mixed with chicory [anyone else remember "Chico"]

OK, if you have never had the real thing [and my real thing was "Camp coffee" it was not too bad]

I suspect if push really came to shove we, along with other post colonial European powers, US, Russia and maybe China would just go and take what we wanted from other less militarily powerful countries, this would of course not be an invasion or colonisation, it would be spun as " mutual aid" or similar

rhiwfield

cootambear wrote: »

do you know when this has happened? when countries grew their own crops, all that it took was a local crop failure for starvation to set in. trade meant that local crop failures could be met by imports from countries whose crops did not fail.

let the uk go self sufficient if you will. one bad wheat harvest and we`d all be cannibals.

FWIW I agee in a small way with Defra that trade can improve food security in the event of a local crop failure. However for the UK to run a 40% deficit in food, at a time when our economy and political influence have declined, seems to me to be inherently stupid. It means that we have a need to import food rather than a contingent requirement.

rhiwfield

cootambear wrote: »

what did I miss? to err is human, but to learn is human also.

The assumption in the title is that the "shove" has happened and that there are food shortages. Very happy to debate with you on another thread why the shove might happen, including the push factors you dismiss.

cootambear

rhiwfield wrote: »

The assumption in the title is that the "shove" has happened and that there are food shortages. Very happy to debate with you on another thread why the shove might happen, including the push factors you dismiss.

There are not food shortages. There is enough food to feed the world to an adequate dietary level, and have been since about 1900.

The reason some people are short of food is that the economic system is based on profit. If the poor cannot afford to pay the price that the market system requires to make a profit, they go hungry.

Food price rises will hit the poorest hard, not because there are food shortages, but because they are poor.

I accept that you are saying that the `shove` has not already happened, but I remember all this being said in the late 60`s, and that we would all starve by about `78.

cootambear

rhiwfield wrote: »

FWIW I agee in a small way with Defra that trade can improve food security in the event of a local crop failure. However for the UK to run a 40% deficit in food, at a time when our economy and political influence have declined, seems to me to be inherently stupid. It means that we have a need to import food rather than a contingent requirement.

IIRC the UK is the 5th largest economy in the world, so hardly struggling viz importing food.

The Uk is the at the centre of world influence thanks to allying with the US, and consequently reaping the benefits from iraqi oil (I opposed the war btw).

Reverting back to the mythical `rural idyll`(which never existed, without trade we were always a bad growing season away from starvation), where we supposedly produced all our food needs by a few afternoons potterings in our gardens, is fantasy land.

Rummer

It would be nice to get this thread back on track and to discuss how we would approach gardening if we had to provide increased food for our families.

In our case we have a medium sized garden that could be turned over completely to food. My issue however would be establishing a routine to ensure a continual supply of food throughout the year. At the moment we have had minimal success in growing veg and fruit and it would be no where near enough to feed our family. This is something I want to work on improving crisis or not as it would be good to eat more healthily and to reduce shopping bills.

rhiwfield

Rummer wrote: »

It would be nice to get this thread back on track and to discuss how we would approach gardening if we had to provide increased food for our families.


In our case we have a medium sized garden that could be turned over completely to food. My issue however would be establishing a routine to ensure a continual supply of food throughout the year. At the moment we have had minimal success in growing veg and fruit and it would be no where near enough to feed our family. This is something I want to work on improving crisis or not as it would be good to eat more healthily and to reduce shopping bills.

Cheers Rummer, I think you know this is what we've tried to do and it gets just a little better each year.

However, although we can now produce most of our fruit needs and a fair bit of veg we'd go short on meat, dairy, cereals (esp flour), sugar and potatoes, and I see no answer to that other than buying in as needed. And we'd definitely need to improve storage/processing of food for the lean months.