HBOS screwing us over or not?

blackworx

Hi folks, first post here. Please be nice if I'm not posting in the right place!

Just looking for a bit of advice on our credit card drama. I'll try to be brief....

Ok, so we took out a CC with HBOS just before last xmas to take advantage of the 9 month interest free offer as we needed to get some new furniture as the family was visiting over xmas.

We calculated what we needed to pay every month in order to clear it before the interest free period ran out, and started paying. Because we were paying off such a big sum each month we (stupidly, I know) never checked the statements.

Unbeknownst to us, it turns out two things had happened. Firstly, because the payment due date changed every month (a little trick we didn't know about) we twice missed the due date by a couple of days. HBOS duly slapped on their £12 admin charges and removed the interest free offer.

Secondly, HBOS had been charging us PPI the whole time which we specifically declined at the time of taking out the card. And by specifically, I mean the conversation went something like: "No, I categorically do not want payment protection. I am self-employed, my partner is a public sector worker, we will be paying off the card within the 9 month period and there is almost zero chance of a cut our in income during that time."

Fast forward to almost the end of the interest free period, and we check a statement for the first time, thinking we have a couple of hundred left to pay, only to discover a £640 outstanding balance.

That was August. Between then and now we've had to deal with HBOS' awful customer service who have refunded one £12 charge as a goodwill gesture (groan) but none of the interest, and they are maintaining that the PPI is a mis-selling issue and have lumped it in with all the other PPI mis-selling complaints which are apparently "on hold". Luckily I've made sure it's all been in writing right from the start as I didn't see it ending well.

My questions are as follows:

1) Do we have much of a chance taking the argument about the "late" payments to the ombudsman?

2) Surely the PPI thing isn't a mis-selling issue, as we never said yes to it in the first place?

YorkshireBoy

1) None at all. However, I understand when threatened with small claims court action they will refund all £12 fees...but it won't be quick. The damage to your credit file?...well that's a done deal now and you'll have to live with that for some considerable time!

2) Did you apply by phone or in branch? What did you sign for...when they sent the agreement? Was PPI on there?


How did you know when to pay if you never checked the statements?...pure guesswork?

Ever heard of direct debit?

blackworx

Cheers for quick reply.

1) Meh, thought so. They keep shovelling up the credit limit for some reason though, and even if they weren't I wouldn't be bothered about a poor credit score as this is the only time we've ever used unsecured credit and have no intention of ever doing so again.

2) Phone - it's actually in my partner's name so she signed the agreement. Good point though - I should find out what was on there. Obviously we were too trusting to assume that the person who took the application call wouldn't (whether accidentally or maliciously) ignore the fact that my partner specifically declined PPI. Strangely though, HBOS have never mentioned it being "what was signed up for" in any correspondence.

Re when to pay: No, it wasn't guesswork. We waved a few chickens over a wax pentagram then phoned up and asked.

Yes, we have heard of direct debit thank you very much. You're obviously well-respected round these parts and I wouldn't dream of rocking the boat, but regardless there was no need for the sarcastic tone towards the end there.

Thank you anyway.

YorkshireBoy

blackworx wrote: »

...I wouldn't be bothered about a poor credit score as this is the only time we've ever used unsecured credit and have no intention of ever doing so again.

So no mortgage application planned? No re-mortgage (to a new lender) likely in the next year or so? How about a further advance for home improvements? Maybe a mobile phone contract? An extension to your overdraft facility?

A poor credit history affects much more than credit card/loan applications.

Hax

blackworx wrote: »

but regardless there was no need for the sarcastic tone towards the end there.

The problem is that there are loads of people who come on here claiming that the bank have played a "sly trick" on them by moving their direct debit date. What people seem to forget is that the days of the week shift with regard to the calendar dates. And weekends and bank holidays all have a knock on effect on things like credit card statements.

So, the bank aren't using "tricks" - it's simply impossible for them to ALWAYS keep the same due date because of the above.

The ONLY way you can truly KNOW what date payments are due is to read your statements each and every month. If you can't be bothered to do that then your next best option is to setup a direct debit for the minimum amount - then the responsibility for collecting the payment lies with the bank. However, you still need to ensure that the funds are in your account in time for the direct debit to be collected - and that date again varies a little for the same reasons as above.

It's also unwise to not check your statements in case they contain details about fraudulent transactions.

The advice you were given is very good. Might be worthwhile checking your credit reports to see if any late payments have been registered against you.

opinions4u

blackworx wrote: »

Unbeknownst to us, it turns out two things had happened. Firstly, because the payment due date changed every month (a little trick we didn't know about) we twice missed the due date by a couple of days. HBOS duly slapped on their £12 admin charges and removed the interest free offer.

It's not a trick. I can't remember precisely when my statement date is, but it's something like the second working day after the third Saturday of the month. Regardless, the statements that you chose to ignore clearly state the due dates for payment.

Secondly, HBOS had been charging us PPI the whole time which we specifically declined at the time of taking out the card. And by specifically, I mean the conversation went something like: "No, I categorically do not want payment protection. I am self-employed, my partner is a public sector worker, we will be paying off the card within the 9 month period and there is almost zero chance of a cut our in income during that time."

The thing is, the old Halifax CCRC policy specifically insures self employed people. It also insures public sector workers.

Fast forward to almost the end of the interest free period, and we check a statement for the first time, thinking we have a couple of hundred left to pay, only to discover a £640 outstanding balance.

Do you realise how negligent you have been in your financial affairs? You have specifically asked if HBOS are screwing you over. I think this suggests you have absolutely screwed yourselves. If a fraudulent transaction had appeared on your statement 8 months earlier, how would you have known about it?

That was August. Between then and now we've had to deal with HBOS' awful customer service who have refunded one £12 charge as a goodwill gesture (groan) but none of the interest

Well to be honest, what did you expect? You broke the terms and conditions of your agreement, paid late, and they enforced the terms and conditions. You are lucky to get the £24 back.

and they are maintaining that the PPI is a mis-selling issue and have lumped it in with all the other PPI mis-selling complaints which are apparently "on hold".

Well what else are they meant to maintain that it is?

1) Do we have much of a chance taking the argument about the "late" payments to the ombudsman?

You have the absolute right to take your complaint to the FOS. But given that you have failed to manage your own affairs, I can't see how the FOS can rule in your favour.

2) Surely the PPI thing isn't a mis-selling issue, as we never said yes to it in the first place?

I can't think of a clearer definition of mis-sale!

There will be three main steps to the insurance sale.

- a conversation over the telephone (possibly recorded)
- an application form with a ticked box that should have been signed for
- a policy booklet posted out after the card has been issued

It is quite an achievement in the last two or three years to achieve a mis-sale because the sales processes have been highly regulated.

there was no need for the sarcastic tone towards the end there

You do need to consider that hundreds of people will read this thread. Anything that educates them not to make the same expensive mistakes as you is a positivie thing.

blackworx

Right, I stated in my original post that I am aware we were idiotic in not checking the statements. That much is a given; it has already been said more than once; anyone else fancy chipping in to tell me what I already know?

Strangely, every other bill of ours - mortgage, council tax, utility bills, mobile phones, cable tv, tv license, etc. etc., are ALL due exactly one calendar month after the last one, except where it falls on a weekend or bank holiday. We were not aware that HBOS would use a set weekday rather than a date for the credit card, and (aforementioned well-established stupidity aside) whilst calling it a "trick" may have been taking it too far, it was NOT illogical to assume that the due date would follow the same pattern as every other monthly bill.

Now that I have had a chance to go back over the details it turns out that on one of the occasions we were "late" we had actually paid too early, i.e. before the statement was issued, causing the payment to register in the previous month.

opinions4u wrote:

The thing is, the old Halifax CCRC policy specifically insures self employed people. It also insures public sector workers.

If we had been affected by the "old" policy and "forced" into taking PPI, then my partner should have been told about it when she told them we were self employed/public sector. If we were not affected by the "old" policy then your implied point (i.e. that we should not have assumed otherwise) isn't a "thing" at all.

and they are maintaining that the PPI is a mis-selling issue and have lumped it in with all the other PPI mis-selling complaints which are apparently "on hold".

Well what else are they meant to maintain that it is?
I can't think of a clearer definition of mis-sale!

So I am wrong in thinking that the definition of a PPI mis-sale is when a customer has taken on PPI as a result of the bank's bad advice?

You do need to consider that hundreds of people will read this thread. Anything that educates them not to make the same expensive mistakes as you is a positivie thing.

I agree. However my point stands. It is perfectly possible to educate without sarcasm/put-downs on a public forum, no matter how many idiots a person has to contend with on a daily basis. If these people p*ss you off and make you resort to snide comments then you should be considering your motivation for even wanting to reply in the first place, regardless of how "positive" the outcome.

Hax is right, the advice I have been given is good. Much better, in fact, than the fragmented correspondence I have received from HBOS itself, who took almost 8 weeks to reply to our first letter and then only addressed 1 out of 3 points made in that letter.

One thing is for sure: we won't be making the same mistakes again. This is the first time we have used elective credit and we were clearly naïve to assume that paying off the debt at a far faster rate than was required would allow us to neglect the common-sense responsibility of checking the statements.

opinions4u

blackworx wrote: »

Right, I stated in my original post that I am aware we were idiotic in not checking the statements. That much is a given; it has already been said more than once; anyone else fancy chipping in to tell me what I already know?

Well it is rather the crux of the late payments problem.

Strangely, every other bill of ours - mortgage, council tax, utility bills, mobile phones, cable tv, tv license, etc. etc., are ALL due exactly one calendar month after the last one, except where it falls on a weekend or bank holiday. We were not aware that HBOS would use a set weekday rather than a date for the credit card, and (aforementioned well-established stupidity aside) whilst calling it a "trick" may have been taking it too far, it was NOT illogical to assume that the due date would follow the same pattern as every other monthly bill.

It is totally illogical to assume. It is also totally illogical to decide when the payment cut off date would be without checking. I'm sorry if you don't like being reminded of your own errors here, but it is rather relevant to what caused the problem in the first place.

Now that I have had a chance to go back over the details it turns out that on one of the occasions we were "late" we had actually paid too early, i.e. before the statement was issued, causing the payment to register in the previous month.

All as a result of assumption.

If we had been affected by the "old" policy and "forced" into taking PPI, then my partner should have been told about it when she told them we were self employed/public sector. If we were not affected by the "old" policy then your implied point (i.e. that we should not have assumed otherwise) isn't a "thing" at all.

I'm not disputing that there should have been a clear conversation where your partner understood that she had agreed to PPI. Just for clarity, your occupation is of no relevance. It is the occupation of the insured that is relevant. If youur partner is the self employed one then the seller should have clearly stated the exclusions that applied to self employment - and also the occasions when it would pay out for the ending of self employment.

So I am wrong in thinking that the definition of a PPI mis-sale is when a customer has taken on PPI as a result of the bank's bad advice?

No. You are wrong to think it's the only definition.

I agree. However my point stands. It is perfectly possible to educate without sarcasm/put-downs on a public forum, no matter how many idiots a person has to contend with on a daily basis. If these people p*ss you off and make you resort to snide comments then you should be considering your motivation for even wanting to reply in the first place, regardless of how "positive" the outcome.

You may have a point. On the other hand, when somebody suggests that the bank has "screwed them over" when they have been negligent in managing their own affairs, it does rather ask for a reaction.

I'm sorry being reminded of your own responsibilities wasn't welcome. Good luck with the PPI claim. If it's been sold in the way you suggest, then you should succeed, despite the application form and policy booklet telling you that you bought the product several months earlier.

ironlady2022

Hi Blackworx

Regarding your 2 points

1: I'm very surprised you got some charges back (that's good) but unfortunately that's why the bank sends regular statements so you can check for discrepencies. Never mind we are to learn from our mistakes. Regards to the same payment every month, I agree you would think that it would come out same every month but not in this case. I do most of my things online, have you considered this option?
2: It is a strong case of mis-selling! I know when I applied for my Halifax credit card, I had to sign paperwork (as I did it online) and send it back. Could your other half have signed the wrong bit? Or even twice? (one in the signature, and one in the ppi section). I'm only grasping at straws here.

blackworx

opinions4u wrote:

I'm not disputing that there should have been a clear conversation where your partner understood that she had agreed to PPI.

That's just it - there was a clear conversation - as described in my original post. I am fully aware that my occupation does not come into it, I mentioned that solely because it was how the conversation went. At no point did the HBOS rep say that either A) my partner's self-employed status meant she "had to" take on PPI, or that she had even agreed to take on PPI because - again, this is in the original post - she specifically did not agree to it. It's not like the conversation was fuzzy and open to interpretation. To further clarify for you, the telephone rep ostensibly accepted her declination of the offer.

You may have a point. On the other hand, when somebody suggests that the bank has "screwed them over" when they have been negligent in managing their own affairs, it does rather ask for a reaction.

Okay, point taken, I regret my choice of thread title.

I'm sorry being reminded of your own responsibilities wasn't welcome.

I'm fine with it. What isn't welcome is a snarky tone regardless of who it's from. Also I'm not a big fan of folk wilfully misinterpreting my words.

mayling03 wrote:

I'm very surprised you got some charges back (that's good)

I think the £12 we got back probably related to the time when we paid a couple of days early - presumably after we wrote to HBOS they spotted this.

I do most of my things online, have you considered this option?

I do everything online, however my partner doesn't - mainly because her main account is with Santander and she really doesn't like their online service.

blackworx

opinions4u wrote: »

While I can appreciate there is room for disagreement on things, please could you highlight where this has happened, because I'm not aware of it.

You did it when you stated that I did not welcome being reminded of my own responsibilities.