Lost NI number - advice please

Sambucus_Nigra

SeduLOUs wrote: »

Not anymore. Went in to JobCentrePlus yesterday with passport and was told they are not allowed to provide NI numbers anymore.

Have already followed all advice above and completed CA form on HMRC site but the problem is we have been told it can take up to 12 weeks.

Yes, he appreciates he is at fault for not keeping any records, but surely there is some obligation on the employer to assist in getting him paid?

No - not really. As an adult there are certain things that you really do need to take responsibility for.

Why is it always the employer's fault!

Savvy_Sue

welcome ...

SeduLOUs wrote: »

As I understand it, the employer can send off his P46 without the NI number on and the tax office will automatically trace it. However, the employer will not send off the P46 without a payroll number, and he cannot be set up on payroll without the NI number. I also understand that a payroll number is not necessary for a p46 as the box states 'Payroll number (if any)'.

that last bit is true. and I can't see why the P46 can't be sent before he's on payroll. also there used to be an option for using a temp NINo, although that might have gone, look on the HMRC site.

SeduLOUs wrote: »

He has also suggested to his employer that they pay him an 'advance' for this month's estimated net pay, and run the payroll properly once the NI number has been received.

it's what I would do, but not everyone is as accommodating.

SeduLOUs wrote: »

His employer is refusing to entertain any of these options and is refusing to pay him until he provides 'proof' of his NI number. The logic behind this is that she must ensure that he is not an illegal immigrant. Surely his British passport is sufficient for this, as an NI number is not proof of identity, and regardless he has already started working!

she should not have him working if he is not entitled to do so, and that's a separate exercise to paying him IMO. and you're right, his NINo proves nothing, it's his passport she needs.

SeduLOUs wrote: »

So the question is, what obligation is there (if any) on the employer to ensure he gets paid in a timely manner?

not to pay him would be unlawful, suggest you look at ACAS site. a letter to this effect, pointing out that the employer has options in the absence of a NINo and that their stated reason for needing the NINo is incorrect, and requiring payment within 7 days could be the way to go. acknowledging that he is putting them to some trouble would not go amiss ...

SeduLOUs wrote: »

The other question is, what implications would there be if he thinks he remembers what his NI number is and gives it to his employer to enable payment, but next month it turns out he had remembered it incorrectly?

it should be possible to amend his NI record, but it could take a while.

but can he really not find it? does he have any paperwork at his parents, for example?

when he has retrieved it, he needs to store it somewhere safe btw.

SeduLOUs wrote: »

Yes, he appreciates he is at fault for not keeping any records, but surely there is some obligation on the employer to assist in getting him paid?

only that not paying him is unlawful ...

he does have to be careful in all this of course, if he wants to work to the end of the contract. he would still have to be paid, but the boss could decide he's more trouble than he's worth and tell him not to come in any more, and he'd have very little protection against that. he'd still be entitled to his pay, but it could be even harder to get it.

themull1

You can only get a temporary ni number if you have never been given a proper one.

asc99c

I believe you can still visit the HMRC office for a face to face interview and they should be able to hand out the number there and then.

http://www.worksmart.org.uk/rights/i_have_lost_my_national_insurance_number

Not sure of opening hours, may well clash with working hours

anamenottaken

MrsManda wrote: »

Has he checked through all his previous paperwork, he should really have kept some of his official information even if he did leave the country for 5 years -
P60s, P45s, Wage slips etc...? They should all have his N.I. number on them.

Wage slips are not required to have the NINo.

anamenottaken

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

only that not paying him is unlawful ...

Good post Sue. My only comment would be that they don't have to pay him weekly or monthly if they have not issued written particulars which state that that is the frequency of paying. They could choose to offer him work with payment for his services being made once a year!

SeduLOUs

anamenottaken wrote: »

Good post Sue. My only comment would be that they don't have to pay him weekly or monthly if they have not issued written particulars which state that that is the frequency of paying. They could choose to offer him work with payment for his services being made once a year!

Thank you very much Sue - you have pretty much confirmed everything I was thinking to begin with.

His employer has told him he would normally be paid on 7th January, but his pay will be withheld if he fails to provide his NI number in time. I have confirmed with ACAS that this would be unlawful.

He is going to approach his employer carefully today explaining what they need to do and express that he can't see any legal reason for them to withhold his pay. Hopefully things will get resolved peacefully.

And to whoever commented "why is it always the employer's fault" - yes I appreciate he is at fault for losing his number, but he has demonstrated that he has done everything possible to obtain it. HMRC have confirmed that he does not need it in order to be paid, so the employer is just being obstructive. Would you just sit back at Christmas and accept that you were not going to be paid because somebody in payroll is refusing to do their job?

Sambucus_Nigra

SeduLOUs wrote: »

And to whoever commented "why is it always the employer's fault" - yes I appreciate he is at fault for losing his number, but he has demonstrated that he has done everything possible to obtain it. HMRC have confirmed that he does not need it in order to be paid, so the employer is just being obstructive. Would you just sit back at Christmas and accept that you were not going to be paid because somebody in payroll is refusing to do their job?

See - I wouldn't assume that someone in payroll is refusing to do their job and if I felt this was the case I'd:


Either
Sit outside their offices with a printout of the legaleze that says why they can still pay without an NI number
or
Sit in the benefits office with my ID and a printout of the legaleze that says they are duty bound to provide my NI number
or
have kept my previous documentation
or
memorised my NI number donkey's years ago [which is the case anyway]

SeduLOUs

Sambucus_Nigra wrote: »

See - I wouldn't assume that someone in payroll is refusing to do their job and if I felt this was the case I'd:


Either
Sit outside their offices with a printout of the legaleze that says why they can still pay without an NI number
or
Sit in the benefits office with my ID and a printout of the legaleze that says they are duty bound to provide my NI number
or
have kept my previous documentation
or
memorised my NI number donkey's years ago [which is the case anyway]

Memorising his number donkey's years ago is an excellent suggestion, I found myself wondering why I hadn't thought of it myself. Unfortunately we cannot go back in time and implement your ingenius idea retrospectively.

I didn't 'assume' that somebody in payroll wasn't doing their job. I came to that conclusion after spending hours researching on the internet and explaining the full situation to both HMRC and ACAS.

Your 'suggestion' in bold is exactly what he is doing today. I asked for advice because I was only part way through my research into the situation and hoped for a peaceful resolution. I would have preferred to find an alternative where he could find the number himself and avoid the conflict.

His employer IS breaking the law by withholding his pay, but let's bear in mind how powerful employers are. Banging down the door spouting legal jargon and demanding payment or offering a court summons will more than likely result in him losing the job altogether. My personal opinion would tell me that if an employer is happy not to pay me, I wouldn't want to work for them anyway, but unfortunately that attitude doesn't pay the bills.

Again, many thanks to the helpful users on here who helped me to ensure that we have done everything possible to obtain the number ourselves. Merry Xmas.

Savvy_Sue

Sambucus_Nigra wrote: »

memorised my NI number donkey's years ago [which is the case anyway]

I don't think I consciously set out to memorise it, but by the time you get to my age you've supplied it so many times it seems to have sunk in, along with my mum's dividend no from the Coop (which really DOES show my age!) DH knows his too, but the boys look at me blankly when I ask if they know theirs.