Why do the disabled get free passage on the Severn Bridges?

Jeff_Bridges_hair

designergraphics wrote: »

I could use your argument to say that if I caught the train to London I'd have to decide to go without a meal because I'd have to use taxis to get into town because I can't access the underground.
Disabled or able bodied, we all have to prioritize according to our needs and means.

The majority if not all London buses have disabled ramps. there are plenty of step free access LUL stations now too.. So why couldnt you get anywhere to have food again?

mgn83uk

Jeff_Bridges_hair wrote: »

The majority if not all London buses have disabled ramps. there are plenty of step free access LUL stations now too.. So why couldnt you get anywhere to have food again?

All London Buses do have ramps, except the Heritage routes in Central London, but that's where the rose tinted spectacles view ends; have you ever actually tried getting across London by bus in a wheelchair?

There were exceptions, but on the last occasion, in most instances, it failed miserably. It took me 2 hours to get from somewhere in North London (can't remember where the nearest [inaccessible] tube station was, but the compareable tube journey was only 25 minutes) not because the bus journey was that long, not because of the traffic, but because most bus drivers refused point blank to carry me.

There was always some excuse, of the ones who actually bothered to stop - some actually picked up standing passengers and drove off! Either the ramp wasn't working [electric ramps are used on TfL buses - but really, if that many aren't working, there is a problem!], or the space was occupied by a pushchair and the driver couldn't both him/herself to ask them to move, or some other reason they had just imagined.

TfL in response wants a whole plethoria of detail, such a the vehicle registration, route number, stop name, operating company, etc - all very difficult to note down in the seconds it takes to pass you.

As for tube stations, there are not plenty of step-free tube stations in London, the majority are an absolute nightmare, and even if you can get to the platform there's often a one foot gap/step to the train, so not much use there. Unlike National Rail, they fragantly get away with this, without providing ramps or staff to assist you, and unlike National Rail, do not provide an alternative taxi to you either.

Nobody here has the right to criticise a wheelchair-using or severely-mobility-impaired driver for chosing to drive into London until they try it, by themselves, in a wheelchair or similar. Just because it appears so wonderful to you, doesn't mean it actually is!

designergraphics

Jeff_Bridges_hair wrote: »

The majority if not all London buses have disabled ramps. there are plenty of step free access LUL stations now too.. So why couldnt you get anywhere to have food again?

I didn't say I couldn't get anywhere to have food, I used the word 'IF' in a hypothetical situation in response to a post where it was mentioned that some motorists have to make sacrifices in order to pay the £5 toll on the Severn Bridge. I was making the point that everyone has to prioritize according to their needs and means. As for all buses in London being accessible that might well be the case - there is space for one wheelchair user. And, as mgn83uk said, the ramps are sometimes faulty or the driver refuses to tell passengers to remove child buggies from the space. Whilst London transport might be accessible the same can't be said for other cities and towns.
As for there being plenty of step free Underground stations, the only part of the Underground that is fully wheelchair accessible is the section of the Jubilee Line between Waterloo and Stratford plus the whole of the Docklands Light Railway. As has been said, many stations have a vertical step into the train which may be as high as 300mm. There may also be a gap between the train and the platform.
Some people view the free toll situation as positive discrimination and therefore unfair. My response to that is that what's unfair is that if I pay the same taxes as everyone else I shouldn't enjoy the same benefits as everyone else. ie NO discrimination.

puppypants

maninthestreet wrote: »

Must get a bot breezy wheeling a wheel chair across either of those bridges - or am I confused??

Probably quite apt if you are a skirt or kilt wearer!!:eek::eek:

Jeff_Bridges_hair

mgn83uk wrote: »

All London Buses do have ramps, except the Heritage routes in Central London, but that's where the rose tinted spectacles view ends; have you ever actually tried getting across London by bus in a wheelchair?

There were exceptions, but on the last occasion, in most instances, it failed miserably. It took me 2 hours to get from somewhere in North London (can't remember where the nearest [inaccessible] tube station was, but the compareable tube journey was only 25 minutes) not because the bus journey was that long, not because of the traffic, but because most bus drivers refused point blank to carry me.

There was always some excuse, of the ones who actually bothered to stop - some actually picked up standing passengers and drove off! Either the ramp wasn't working [electric ramps are used on TfL buses - but really, if that many aren't working, there is a problem!], or the space was occupied by a pushchair and the driver couldn't both him/herself to ask them to move, or some other reason they had just imagined.

TfL in response wants a whole plethoria of detail, such a the vehicle registration, route number, stop name, operating company, etc - all very difficult to note down in the seconds it takes to pass you.

TFL are well aware of this problem but how do they combat it now? Have a conductor again on every bus or actually encourage people to report the drivers so they can then use the CCTV that they have installed to see if the accusations are true and therefore take action and make this visible so the drivers know they must help or lose their jobs.

=mgn83uk wrote: »

As for tube stations, there are not plenty of step-free tube stations in London, the majority are an absolute nightmare, and even if you can get to the platform there's often a one foot gap/step to the train, so not much use there. Unlike National Rail, they fragantly get away with this, without providing ramps or staff to assist you, and unlike National Rail, do not provide an alternative taxi to you either.

There are 62 i think stations that are step free access. Now unfortuunatly since the collapse of the terrible PFF contracts a lot of the stations that were to have raised platform edges up to the older train stock have been put on hold until they can now afford it. The newer train stock coming on stream at the moment on some lines is actually level with the platform.

the other problem with this is building access down to the platforms - It costs millions to pun in a lift that will go down to some of the deepest lines - I know the ones at Kings x took a lot more money then budgeted because of the obstacles they had to overcome too put them in.And do you know why they get away with it? The issues with Ramps is a good point but again this is down to the safety case on the platforms. Where would you store them ? would they provide a hazard when not in use for other tube users?Especially in times of emergency. There are lots and lots of factors which im not sure you have thought about here.

mgn83uk wrote: »

Nobody here has the right to criticise a wheelchair-using or severely-mobility-impaired driver for chosing to drive into London until they try it, by themselves, in a wheelchair or similar. Just because it appears so wonderful to you, doesn't mean it actually is!

And nobody on this thread is criticizing anyone who has to use a wheelchair or has a severe disability - unless you want to show me where they have done.I don't begrudge you spaces close to the front of shops or in other car parks. I don't begrudge you getting to park for free. I don't begrudge you the excellent mobility scheme. I don't begrudge you the excellent DDA which has enforced all new buildings to be step free access and so on - where practicable remember.So please don't sit there and accuse me or anyone else of criticising you. when we haven't

We are merely saying that some things are purely a financial gain for no apparent reason - I.E the toll being free.Its a perk more then a necessity.


EDIT: Forgot to add there will always be stations that will never be step free on the tube too.. Especially the ones on a curve..

designergraphics

Jeff_Bridges_hair wrote: »

There are 62 i think stations that are step free access.

I think it's excellent that measures are being taken to make all stations accessible. But, until they are, it's no good being able to get on a train if you can't get off where you need to.

Jeff_Bridges_hair wrote: »

We are merely saying that some things are purely a financial gain for no apparent reason - I.E the toll being free.Its a perk more then a necessity.

That is true for most things in life.
Why will child benefit be withdrawn where any individual is earning £44,000-a-year or more but two-income households in which both parents each earn less than the threshold – potentially giving them a household income of more than £80,000 – will keep the benefit? It's could be said it's a necessity for someone earning £45,000 whereas it's a perk for a family with a joint income of £88,000. Having children is a choice so why is child benefit paid at all? Is it just a perk? No-one is forced to have children.
Pensioners get a £200 winter fuel allowance. Some pensioners need the extra help but others are financially well off and to them it's just a perk of being old. I'd much rather all pensioners get the allowance if it means it helps those that need it rather than stop the allowance just to prevent those than don't need it from receiving it.
So disabled people get to save £5.00 when crossing the Severn Bridge - how dare they get a perk. If it causes so much concern I'd rather the concession was removed rather than people think we get it too easy. It's such a small thing in life. If the concession was taken away don't expect the charges to drop though. It would just mean the operators made more profit.
The original poster's gone quiet!

BillTrac

puppypants wrote: »

Probably quite apt if you are a skirt or kilt wearer!!:eek::eek:

Yes I though he meant breezy bot, not bot freezyy:rotfl:

esmerobbo

designergraphics wrote: »

So disabled people get to save £5.00 when crossing the Severn Bridge - how dare they get a perk. If it causes so much concern I'd rather the concession was removed rather than people think we get it too easy. It's such a small thing in life. If the concession was taken away don't expect the charges to drop though. It would just mean the operators made more profit.
The original poster's gone quiet!

I don't think the OPs original post had anything to do with whether the concession should be allowed or not, If you read it, I think their problem was they thought it was being abused.
The way the concession works on the Bridge I don't see how it could be abused.

Post #11 "The blue badge scheme is notoriously abused and we have strong evidence that certain courier/delivery firms are widespread in this abuse."

Jeff_Bridges_hair

designergraphics wrote: »

I think it's excellent that measures are being taken to make all stations accessible. But, until they are, it's no good being able to get on a train if you can't get off where you need to.



That is true for most things in life.
Why will child benefit be withdrawn where any individual is earning £44,000-a-year or more but two-income households in which both parents each earn less than the threshold – potentially giving them a household income of more than £80,000 – will keep the benefit? It's could be said it's a necessity for someone earning £45,000 whereas it's a perk for a family with a joint income of £88,000. Having children is a choice so why is child benefit paid at all? Is it just a perk? No-one is forced to have children.
Pensioners get a £200 winter fuel allowance. Some pensioners need the extra help but others are financially well off and to them it's just a perk of being old. I'd much rather all pensioners get the allowance if it means it helps those that need it rather than stop the allowance just to prevent those than don't need it from receiving it.
So disabled people get to save £5.00 when crossing the Severn Bridge - how dare they get a perk. If it causes so much concern I'd rather the concession was removed rather than people think we get it too easy. It's such a small thing in life. If the concession was taken away don't expect the charges to drop though. It would just mean the operators made more profit.
The original poster's gone quiet!

And all those things you have mentioned are, i believe, what the government are trying to sort out before they implement it.

And as the post above me has pointed out that there is a lot of abuse from people on the blue badge scheme. who dont really need one.. I know KCC used to hand them out willynilly without a doctors note to get one.

What does get people though is the financial gain when other people who may not be disabled but are on low wages still have to pay - would you not say thats unfair to them too as maybe they cant afford it and thus never actually leave Wales...

think it's excellent that measures are being taken to make all stations accessible. But, until they are, it's no good being able to get on a train if you can't get off where you need to.

Unfortunately they never all will be.. The cost is too horrific for some stations to even get lifts in at the moment and as I said before you cannot put raised sections of platforms at some stations that are on a curve as the loading guage will not allow it.

you need to remember our tube system is over 150 years old now with many things built on top of them since then including the leccy gas and water mains.

designergraphics

esmerobbo wrote: »

I don't think the OPs original post had anything to do with whether the concession should be allowed or not, If you read it, I think their problem was they thought it was being abused.
The way the concession works on the Bridge I don't see how it could be abused.

Post #11 "The blue badge scheme is notoriously abused and we have strong evidence that certain courier/delivery firms are widespread in this abuse."

I agree with you about the difficulty of abusing the system because each badge bears a photo of the holder so when the badge is given to the toll attendant all they have to do is check the photograph against the driver. Maybe the original poster could enlighten us as to how this happens seeing as he has "strong evidence that certain courier/delivery firms are widespread in this abuse."

The OP's original post asked why the disabled get free passage passage over the bridge. He only mentioned abuse of the system in one of his five posts, and then only when prompted. Although he said abuse of the badge was his main concern he seemed more concerned with:

"However, specifically, how does not paying a bridge toll ease a disabled persons life other than financially?"

I supposed that's what opened the thread up to what it's become. It's interesting to note that whilst quite a few seem to object to the disabled getting free passage, no-one's commented on PasturesNew's observation that motorcyclists get free passage. Surely, that's just as much of a 'perk'?