HeatWise tariff, but no cable!

MatB

A friend moved into a flat three months ago. She took over the E.ON electricity account when they wrote to 'The Occupier'. £70/month direct debit. A little steep, but she had other things to sort out after moving in and expected to end in credit in due course.

She got her first bill the other day, ~£200 so it had actually been costing her about £70/month. Ouch. It turns out they've put her on a HeatWise tariff!? She does have electric heating, but convection only with no storage heaters. There are five sets of meter readings, but three of those read zero. Looking at the electricity cupboard at the end of the block of flats. there's only a single wire going to her flat. So there could never have been a HeatWise supply to her flat.

After a couple of phone calls which suggested it wasn't possible to change tariff without changing the meter (involving cost, hassle, asking landlord, etc.) E.ON have agreed to change her to a standard tariff retaining the same meter. She's still out of pocket for the last few months.

Is this actually some kind of special 'HeatWise' meter or is it just that standard meters tend to have two readings that aren't zero? Should she want to move suppliers, will other suppliers be willing to take her with this type of meter onto one of their standard tariffs?

What are my chances of persuading E.ON to rectify the bill retrospectively? I'm writing a letter but not holding out much hope. They must have been overcharging for the last three years since the place was built!

Former_E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc

Hi MatB

Thought it might help if I give you a bit of background info.

Heatwise meters are usually put into all electric properties with storage heaters.

They are wired directly into the water/heating circuits at a property to provide 10 hours of off peak electricity for water/heating needs.

The Heatwise sits alongside a normal meter, either single rate or Economy 7.

From what you say, it sounds as though your friend's Heatwise unit may have been disconnected/removed. This would account for the three zero readings.

Consequently, all usage at the property will have gone through her standard Economy 7 meter.

Our standard rates on a normal Economy 7 meter are the same as those on Heatwise with Economy 7. The difference with Heatwise is that customers receive 10 hours of off peak electricity for water/heating purposes at cheaper prices.

However, as your friend has convection heaters, a previous occupier may have had the Heatwise disconnected or removed.

Do you know if the property originally had storage heaters fitted? I suspect this may have been the case and that's why a Heatwise meter was installed.

I would ask her to talk to one of our specialist metering teams. If the Heatwise has been taken out by us then there will be notes to this effect on our system.

If this is the case, it should not be difficult to set her account up as a normal Economy 7 customer. This will allow her access to many more tariffs and also give her the ability to change supplier.

However, if the Heatwise has been disconnected/removed by a third party, there may be other implications involved.

It's difficult to speculate too much about your friend's particular circumstances from the info available. That's why I recommend she talk to our metering specialists.

It may be we have to arrange for a special visit to check out the specifics at the property. She may even need to arrange for an independent electrician to carry out some remedial work. Difficult to say.

Sorry I can't offer anything more positive MatB but hope this helps point your friend in the right direction. Give me a shout if I can help further as will be happy to do so.

Malc

MatB

E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc wrote: »

From what you say, it sounds as though your friend's Heatwise unit may have been disconnected/removed. This would account for the three zero readings.

The property was refurbished into a number of flats in 2007. All the wiring appears relatively new, it's not as if something has been taken out. There is no additional cable going through to the flat, nor is there any space for cable or the additional consumer unit, etc. ONE of the flats does have two consumer units and cables, but the rest do not.

E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc wrote: »

Our standard rates on a normal Economy 7 meter are the same as those on Heatwise with Economy 7. The difference with Heatwise is that customers receive 10 hours of off peak electricity for water/heating purposes at cheaper prices.

This surprises me. On switching her to a sensible standard tariff I was quoted much lower prices. Her Heatwise bill included both a standing charge AND initial units at ~30p/unit. I was told that the new tariff would have no standing charge and intial units at ~20p/unit. From that I assume the standing charge and ~10p/initial unit was for the Heatwise service she couldn't use.

E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc wrote: »

Do you know if the property originally had storage heaters fitted? I suspect this may have been the case and that's why a Heatwise meter was installed.

As far as I understand, the meter was only installed in 2007, when the property was converted into flats. There are certainly no wiring points for Heatwise-connected storage heaters.

E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc wrote: »

I would ask her to talk to one of our specialist metering teams. If the Heatwise has been taken out by us then there will be notes to this effect on our system.

Customer services have arranged to change the tariff, but it is useful to know to approach that team if I need to take it further. Thanks.

Former_E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc

Hi MatB

On Heatwise with Economy 7, there are seven different charges.

All general usage going through the standard Economy 7 meter is split between daytime primary and secondary rates. Night usage is then charged after this.

The Heatwise part is charged separately. This, as you say, does include a daily Standing Charge.

There are other charges for water/heating usage during the Heatwise off peak times. These are shown as Heatwise Afternoon and Heatwise Night/Evening.

Finally, there is a separate charge for any usage as a result of the Boost facility being activated.

Now the tariff has been changed, your friend will only have the charges going through the standard Economy 7 meter. That is, daytime primary/secondary and night rates.

We have recently reduced our Economy 7 primary rates. This is why it will be shown as less than the approx 30p per unit on a previous bill.

Going forward, the primary rates will be approx 27p per unit; whilst the secondary rate will be approx 13p per unit and the night rate approx 5p per unit. All these rates include VAT.

Hope this makes sense MatB. Give me a shout if you need any more info as will be happy to help.

Malc

MatB

As planned, I wrote a letter requesting E.ON refund the extra that my friend had been charged for Heatwise, I now kind of wish I hadn't bothered. Shortly thereafter she received a call to arrange for an 'engineer' to visit to 'de-energise' the Heatwise side of the meter. I remained dubious but let them get on with it. In the meantime they put her back on the Heatwise tariff (cheeky monkeys!) but promised to refund (backdated) the Heatwise standing charge only after his visit.

I really want them to put her back in the position she would have been without Heatwise at all, but Malc's comments above indicate that there was no difference between 'normal peak/off peak' Heatwise prices and the Economy 7 ones. I was obviously misled by the recent prices drop on Economy 7. Thanks for that Malc, on a second reading it puts E.ON's offer to refund the Heatwise standing charge only in better context. I'll worry about putting her back onto a discounted Internet tariff later.

So this morning the 'engineer' turned up. He didn't appear to know what he was there to do. Good start. He took a look in the electricity cupboard and apparently did nothing (I wasn't there). He then took a look in the flat and declared that there were Heatwise storage heaters and the hot water tank also used Heatwise. Oh, and he suggested she either put up with it or move house. How professional!

So, she and I am not very impressed. The heaters are definitely convection with no storage element whatsoever. I gave the hot water heating being on Heatwise ten minutes credence but then realised it couldn't be if all the readings were zero! From what I understand, there also would likely be two immersion heaters - one on Heatwise and one not so that you can get hot water out of Heatwise hours (albeit you could use Boost I suppose but that would kick the storage heating in too).

I'll try and describe the set up using a picture stolen from another MSE forum post:



This pictures illustrates a Heatwise set up. My friend's configuration has three wires going in as above, but only two wires (live and neutral) going out from the junction box to her consumer unit (which is located external to her flat). A single 6mm twin and earth then takes the supply to her flat. The Heatwise is already terminated in the junction box - effectively 'de-energised' as E.ON put it.

My friend is now not very happy. She most certainly does not want another visit from an 'engineer' and is reluctant to take a phone call from E.ON. She feels that she's just being fobbed off and lied to, and I tend to agree with her. As usual the call centre won't talk to me without her being there - this is not going to happen as we're both at work when the appropriate department at E.ON are too. As they're supposed to be following up after this engineer visit, I'm going to try and get her to redirect them to call and talk to me (with her permission). After that my next plan of action is to photograph the whole lot and send another letter, and maybe they'll get a qualified electrical engineer to take a look.

Does anyone have a recommendation for a supplier with reasonable customer services who is likely to be able to take the five meter readings, realise that three are zero and supply a non-Heatwise tariff? It seems like the most expedient way to deal with it and I'll chase E.ON for a refund in the longer term.

dunloadin

The picture would be better if the whole of the meter was in it, looks like the bottom of a standard 5 terminal Eco7 type meter going into an isolator switch to me.

Also, I thought heatwise was a two meter 3 read setup, with a teleswitch or a telemeter; looking at the picture theres no cable going to a teleswitch from the meter, so my guess is the picture aint heatwise. I'm happy to be proven wrong as I dont work in an area that has heatwise...though we have plenty of similar alternatives!

Also that neutral on the incoming mains is a bit on the dodgy side, should not be any bare copper showing.

MatB

dunloadin wrote: »

The picture would be better if the whole of the meter was in it, looks like the bottom of a standard 5 terminal Eco7 type meter going into an isolator switch to me.

That picture was stolen from this post. I'll try to get some good pictures of my friend's set up at the weekend.

In the meantime, a rough sketch comes out like this.



All but one of the flats has a single feed as shown, with the purple Heatwise terminating in the junction box. Is this what E.ON meant by de-energising the Heatwise, or does that refer to something else?

Just one flat has Heatwise properly, with one meter but two consumer units. The shaded area in the diagram below is only present for this one flat.

dunloadin wrote: »

Also, I thought heatwise was a two meter 3 read setup, with a teleswitch or a telemeter; looking at the picture theres no cable going to a teleswitch from the meter, so my guess is the picture aint heatwise. I'm happy to be proven wrong as I dont work in an area that has heatwise...though we have plenty of similar alternatives!

You'll see on the other picture on that forum post, that there's a Heatwise sticker. My gran had Heatwise, and had two seperate meters (presumably night/day on one and three Heatwise on the other), my friend has one meter with five readings (day/night and three Heatwise all zero).

Former_E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc

Hi MatB

I'm sorry you and your friend weren't impressed with our engineer. I must say, comments like 'move house' are simply not helpful.

Heatwise meters are generally installed at the request of the builders/property developers for a specific reason.

Once requested, we will fit the meter only. We will not carry out any work after the meter as this will be the responsibility of the appointed contractor.

It's very difficult to speculate what may or may not have happened at individual properties. This is why we always recommend that customers ask an independent electrician to check over the wiring. It's important to understand just what the implications of removing the meter might be.

I'm afraid I am unable to see the pictures you've posted - something to do with the way our computers are set up! To be honest, I suspect, even if I could see them, they wouldn't mean much to me as I'm not particularly technical.

You really need to talk to one of our specialist metering teams. They are much more technically aware.

Ask your friend to tell us she's given her permission for you to discuss her account. Ask for the account to be headlined to this effect. This will satisfy the Data Protection Act and allow you to talk to us on her behalf.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with the engineer but hope this gives you a few pointers.

Malc

stewie_griffin

dunloadin wrote: »

Also, I thought heatwise was a two meter 3 read setup, with a teleswitch or a telemeter; looking at the picture theres no cable going to a teleswitch from the meter, so my guess is the picture aint heatwise. I'm happy to be proven wrong as I dont work in an area that has heatwise...though we have plenty of similar alternatives!

I've got a Heatwise meter and it's a single meter with 5 rates (I beleive 4 rate versions are also available).

dunloadin

Cheers for the heads up and the link to the other thread, I thought heatwise was set up similar to Comfort Plus but from that picture I see it aint....bit like Comfort Plus White Meter tho.

Its a radio telemeter, so it will have been set up with the extra rates and switching times of Heatwise to allow them to give a bonus boost to the storage heaters if/as required. However, if it is wired in as per your diagram and no storage heaters are in the flat thats about as much use as a concrete parachute. Getting a different tariff sorted out will mean a meter change though, you cant change the tariff set on the meter in situ.

As Malc points out the meter will have been fitted at the request of the builders/landlord, if the spec of the heating has changed the meter may not be the appropriate one to have. Sounds like the guy they sent round wasn't the sharpest tool in the box either.

If your 100% sure that the heaters are convectors and not dual storage/convector then Heatwise is probably not the best option....over to E-ON for an answer to that one. It also seems odd that there is no additional fusebox/consumer unit to provide cheap rate electricity to the immersion in the hot water tank.

I'm afraid it sounds like the landlord/previous owner went for the cheapest heating to install as opposed to the cheapest to run.

MatB

E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc wrote: »

Heatwise meters are generally installed at the request of the builders/property developers for a specific reason.

Once requested, we will fit the meter only. We will not carry out any work after the meter as this will be the responsibility of the appointed contractor.

Okay, so it sounds like (3 years ago) E.ON supplied a HeatWise meter and the builder then decided to only take a single feed out of it. Makes a little more sense. Would E.ON not go back to the property at some point to check the installation, ensure the builder hasn't 'accidentally' wired the Heatwise cables to supply non-heating electric? It's not just a mistake on one flat I'm talking about, it is the same for six or seven flats. Only one has a second rate feed.

E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc wrote: »

It's very difficult to speculate what may or may not have happened at individual properties. This is why we always recommend that customers ask an independent electrician to check over the wiring. It's important to understand just what the implications of removing the meter might be.

Well if they're anything like the 'engineer' that E.ON sent, that'd be a bit of a waste of time. But I see where you're coming from. I'm a member of Institute of Electrical Engineers and although not an electrician, have a sufficient understanding to be able to draw the diagram above (that you can't see) and figure out there's problem without calling in outside help. If there's no physical wire, there can't be any electricity flowing down it, as evidenced by the zero readings.

E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc wrote: »

You really need to talk to one of our specialist metering teams. They are much more technically aware.

Do you have a phone number for them, as I am struggling to get anyone at E.ON to understand what the problem is.

E.ON_Company_Representative:_Malc wrote: »

Ask your friend to tell us she's given her permission for you to discuss her account. Ask for the account to be headlined to this effect. This will satisfy the Data Protection Act and allow you to talk to us on her behalf.

Yeah, she did. But it seems E.ON have conveniently lost that from the records. So she'll have to do so again. The more I try to deal with this the more I think E.ON are just being obstructive on purpose as they know they're onto a winner charging all these flats for a Heatwise standing charge when they can't use it.

dunloadin wrote: »

However, if it is wired in as per your diagram and no storage heaters are in the flat thats about as much use as a concrete parachute.

"as much use as a concrete parachute" - I'm stealing that for when I speak to E.ON again.

dunloadin wrote: »

Getting a different tariff sorted out will mean a meter change though, you cant change the tariff set on the meter in situ.

Interesting opinion - I've had about three different answers as to whether it can be changed without a meter switch. Indeed one customer service representative helpfully did change the tariff - I even managed to wangle changing it to an Internet tariff. Unfortunately, a couple of weeks later after my letter another representative of E.ON promptly changed it back, and 'wrote' a nice form letter thanking my friend for changing! Have since kindly suggested to E.ON that sarcastic form letters sent out in such circumstances are not antagonistic and unappreciated. I doubt my suggestion will be heeded.

She promised to restore the tariff back to something sensible once this chap had been round to 'de-energise' the Heatwise. *Whatever 'de-energise' means, I've still not got an answer.) Given he hadn't a clue what he was doing and insisted there was Heatwise in use I doubt that's going to go anywhere. There's no physical cable so I'm not sure what he was going to de-energise anyway unless it's some switch in the meter itself. All the Heatwise readings are zero, have been since the meter was installed. I'm going to check the readings on the other flats meters at the weekend to see if that helps to get to the bottom of this.

dunloadin wrote: »

As Malc points out the meter will have been fitted at the request of the builders/landlord, if the spec of the heating has changed the meter may not be the appropriate one to have. Sounds like the guy they sent round wasn't the sharpest tool in the box either.

Sounds like a stuff up from when the building was refurbished and the electricity installed. As I said above, I'd have thought E.ON would have come round to check post-install, but then if they've sent the same guy round I'm not surprised.

dunloadin wrote: »

If your 100% sure that the heaters are convectors and not dual storage/convector then Heatwise is probably not the best option....over to E-ON for an answer to that one. It also seems odd that there is no additional fusebox/consumer unit to provide cheap rate electricity to the immersion in the hot water tank.

I'm afraid it sounds like the landlord/previous owner went for the cheapest heating to install as opposed to the cheapest to run.

As is always the case in rented accomodation, often you get what you are given. There's no way of knowing the whole system is screwed up until a month or two in when you get a silly bill. On seeing the property (soon after my friend moved in) I was immediately aware that the 'storage heaters' were nothing of the sort and would be expensive to run, but I had no idea they would be provided on a half-cocked Heatwise tariff making matters worse.

Storage heaters are ideal from a landlord's perspective as there is minimal maintenance, no annual gas safety certification to worry about and the extra running costs are not their problem. But fitting this flat with pure convection heaters is taking the mickey! I'm wondering whether an oil filled radiator would be more efficient? Given that there's no other need for Heatwise electricity I can see why they didn't put the cables in to make the hot water run off Heatwise.

Sooner or later it needs fixing, else it'll overpriced be Heatwise forever. But the current tenant (my friend) has lost interest after having been given the runaround, the landlord won't care and few future tenants are going to interested, knowledgeable enough of the issue and intend to stick around long enough to make it worth fighting.