What counts as child poverty in the UK? Poll discussion

Hastobe_Katt

Jacks_xxx wrote: »

What do you know about my income or ability to manage?

Nothing.

Philanthropy is part of the market.

It's inferred from all your posts which give such a loose definition of 'poverty'

PS Almshouses were created by the church - and, while I admit, the Vatican is pretty damned commercial, I don't think it (or any other church) qualifies as 'the market'. Isn't that why the tables at the Temple were overturned?

You might find the following definition of the market useful: Forces of demand and supply representing the aggregate influence of self-interested buyers and seller on price and quantity of the goods and services offered in a market. In general excess demand causes prices and quantity of supply to rise, and in general excess supply causes them to fall. (Courtesy of the on-line business dictionary)

Jacks_xxx

Hastobe_Katt wrote: »

It's inferred from all your posts which give such a loose definition of 'poverty'

Where? Quote me.

Hastobe_Katt wrote: »

PS Almshouses were created by the church - and, while I admit, the Vatican is pretty damned commercial, I don't think it (or any other church) qualifies as 'the market'. Isn't that why the tables at the Temple were overturned?

You might find the following definition of the market useful: Forces of demand and supply representing the aggregate influence of self-interested buyers and seller on price and quantity of the goods and services offered in a market. In general excess demand causes prices and quantity of supply to rise, and in general excess supply causes them to fall. (Courtesy of the on-line business dictionary)

That's a overly simplistic definition.

Paul_Herring

Jacks_xxx wrote: »

Does Harry Potter have a lack of food clothing or shelter while at the Dursleys?

Does he have the quality of life enjoyed by other members of the household in which he resides? Would others consider (absent the conditions enjoyed by other members of the household in which he resides) his situation as poverty? Probably yes. Now consider the other members of the household.

Poverty? Abuse?

I tried to use that as a slightly humourous example of someone in what appears to be collocually(sp) known as 'poverty' but actually isn't.

You seem to state from your previous arguments to my comments that he is, indeed, in some sort of poverty. *He* is. When he is *isn't*.

Would you condone (for example) giving Mr. Dursley #13k a year to keep Mr. Potter? Would Mr. Dursley spend that #13K to increase Mr. Potter's life experience in the cupboard under the stairs?

Over to you Ms. Rowling...

Jacks_xxx

Paul_Herring wrote: »

Does he have the quality of life enjoyed by other members of the household in which he resides? Would others consider (absent the conditions enjoyed by other members of the household in which he resides) his situation as poverty? Probably yes. Now consider the other members of the household.

Poverty? Abuse?

I tried to use that as a slightly humourous example of someone in what appears to be collocually(sp) known as 'poverty' but actually isn't.

You seem to state from your previous arguments to my comments that he is, indeed, in some sort of poverty. *He* is. When he is *isn't*.

Would you condone (for example) giving Mr. Dursley #13k a year to keep Mr. Potter? Would Mr. Dursley spend that #13K to increase Mr. Potter's life experience in the cupboard under the stairs?

Over to you Ms. Rowling...

I don't remember bringing Harry Potter up at all -let alone seeming to state that he lives in poverty - but I shall try to follow your argument.

Does Harry Potter have

A. A lack of food, shelter or clothing

Not so far as I can tell.


B. Family income below £12,700 a year (60% of the average)

No idea. I don't think Ms Rowling specifies


C. A home with no heating

In the films the Dursleys home has radiators but I don't remember them ever being referred to in the books.


D. Parents can’t afford to save £10+ a month for rainy days/retirement

Harry's parents are dead so although they can't save money for a rainy day I don't think it counts.


E. A child without their own bed

Harry has his own bed.


F. No access to school trips (though often schools will subsidise)

Harry's travel does not seem restricted.


G. A family income below £10,500 a year (50% of the average)

No idea. I don't think Ms Rowling specifies.


H. Parents regularly behind with paying household bills

The Dursley's are grumpy, perhaps this is s source of hidden stress? But again, I don't think Ms Rowling specifies


I. No TV

There is a TV in the Dursley living room.


J. A child sharing a room with someone of different gender

This is not the case for Harry Potter unless Hedwig is a girl.


K. No annual holiday

Harry Potter seems to have regular holidays in the country with The Weasleys.


L. No laptop or internet access

None that I have ever noticed.


M. Kids that get free school meals

I believe Harry does get meals included with his scholarship to Hogwarts.


How did I do?

lisalovesabargain

Not actually read all the post's and am new to all this, but i just took the poll, i can actually name people (i wont) who could count most of the worst options as their way of life. The children never have nice, new or even clean clothing, rarely go to school due to the parents forever being up late, rely on the state for their rent and council tax, continuously miss paying bills, have no ideal clothing for the winter for themselves or their children often dont have food in the house, have children of both genders sharing rooms and the list goes on. To look at them and their home you would instantly say they were in poverty, i literally pass all my little girls clothes and toys to them as well as all my old stuff as i cant bear to think of the children without or the parents, yet when i actually sat down and thought about it they are really not in poverty at all. They get around 200 plus a week in benefits to which their bills have to come out of, they get nearly if not all their rent and council tax paid and help with the heating bills, plus milk and fruit and veg vouchers weekly. They smoke, they have sky plus hd, they have a 42inch plasma on the wall, they have an xbox360, 2 laptops and a desktop, internet home phone, 2 mobiles (pay as you go) the parent eat takeaway at least 4 times a week at 20quid a pop as its free delivery then, They also have a cupboard full of xbox games and dvds, which are delivered on a weekly basis as the man of the house doesnt work and plays xbox all day and watches dvd's all night.
Anyway the POINT of my story is... They are far from in poverty due to the generous tax payer's and government help, the major problem is they have absolutely no idea how to manage money, are extremely lazy and generally rely on good natured people like myself giving them stuff for free. I do this because besides all their bad points they are genuinely lovely people with a serious lack of education and no concept of how to raise a family on anything but love. It is extremely sad. Social services are involved with them but the problem is not with child abuse of physical form in any way. They need to have people teaching them how to manage their lives not their children. I regularly have their kids round to play as they are sweet and polite and cheeky, all the things kids should be when you want them playing with yours. As on the other hand another neighbour who works and looks after her family has a child who wants for nothing yet is probably the most gruesome child i have ever met, who wrecks my house and hits my child. So as wonderful as i think we all are in this country to help each other out with the benefits system etc, i think something need's to be done about educating families on the financial side of life. I think social services are wasted on this family, there's no sign of abuse, but they really really need help when it comes to cooking a basic meal that isnt frozen first or paying the elcetric bill rather than sky plus, buying the children clothes rather than takeaways for themselves or fags. They desperately need someone in that house an hour each day teaching the mum to cook and clean and the father to organise his finances. Not social services. There doesnt seem to be anything on offer out there that does that, families like this are handed to social services all the time when there really is awful forms of child abuse out there where they should be.
Anyway thats my little rant over with, i just wonder how you could say anyone is in poverty with the handouts available to them.
I seriously think families with no income should have vouchers for food and heating and clothing, cash is literally wasted on and by them. They need education!!!

LadyGooGoo_2

Barnardos does a bit of that kind of outreach work I believe Lisa. (Supporting families and teaching life skills.)

Hastobe_Katt

Lisalovesabargain - I completely agree. I have never understood why kids have to have, say, religious education on the school syllabus but there is no time available for basic financial education or practical cooking (including nutritional food prep and shopping on a budget).

At my previous job we started a volunteer scheme to go into the local schools to give lessons on how to open a bank account, what is secured and unsecured debt, how mortgages are calculated, the importance of pension planning etc etc. Why is is necessary for volunteers to be providing this education on an ad hoc basis? It's a fundamental part of living - for everyone.

Hastobe_Katt

Jacks_xxx wrote: »

Where? Quote me.



That's a overly simplistic definition.

I would give you a more complete definition from my post grad economics notes - but it would bore you silly.

lisalovesabargain

LadyGooGoo wrote: »

Barnardos does a bit of that kind of outreach work I believe Lisa. (Supporting families and teaching life skills.)

I think social services should pass them over!! I just think this country is a bit too keen to hand out money and write people on benefits off..pay them off even, yet if this family were properly taught to be a household then their children wont go the same way and we may end this 4th generation benefit families which is fast approaching.
I dont understand why they dont have someone in there showing them how to bulid a veggie patch in the garden, show them how to save money etc, i could go on forever as its such a sad situation, but i believe they are the perfect example of what we genuinely mistake as a family in poverty, when really they are a family with very little education and life skills between them. The mother can not even read or write.
Yet they are genuine lovely people, who i would honestly trust to look after my purse full of money. If you know what i'm trying to say.
If there was a better education system for teaching people like this we could concentrate on the children who really are in poverty due to their parents being completely useless, severe addict parents, orphan children with elderly grandparents raising them, abused children etc.
I dont understand how to me it seem's to make perfect sense yet things like bernardo's havent been mentioned to this family.
Maybe i don't fully understand the system properly as i am fortunate to have everything i need and be in a position to save for thing's i want, and i realise im lucky to have a job which isn't affected by the economic crisis.

lisalovesabargain

I remember doing that in school, We each opened a bank account with a pound as we got a free school set, i still have this bank account 20 years later!!!
And home economics, with my little basket of ingredients...im brilliant at pastry too ha ha!!
Yes education is not what it used to be hey!!