Great 'how to help people who aren't online?' Hunt

leathersofa

"You are approaching this from the perspective of somebody who is comfortable with computers and technology in general. Many older people, particularly women are not. They don't speak the language of technology.

Older people are frightened of the internet. They don't understand what it is, how it works or how to use it. My elderly relatives have trouble with a pvr and wouldn't know where to begin with a PC. They have not grown up with the same technology that we have, and don't have games systems, mobile phones and dvd players.

For an elderly person on a fixed income they would need to give something up to pay for something they don't appreciate the value of because they don't understand it, and may not be able to use. A computer and internet connection is out of reach for many of them.

Many have sight problems or manual dexterity issues which make it even harder for them.

Libraries are all well and good but if you have no knowledge of the internet you could queue for an hour, then sit there and do nothing for an hour because you don't know how while hordes of desperate unemployed job seekers breathe down your neck.

This issue is by no means as simple as you seem to believe. "

I don't know what post you're replying to here, but it's not the one I wrote. I didn't write 'everyone, no matter how old or disabled, MUST get online, no excuses'. I said that lack of money for computer and broadband access is no bar to getting online, because public libraries provide multiple computers and free tuition to anyone who wants it, and that the more widely this is publicised, the better. Many people still don't seem to know that this is the case and it needs to be loudly trumpeted. And magazines for older women, which I mentioned in my post, are just the place to do this. Some do, which is great.

To answer a few of your points:

I don't know how you define 'older people', but I'm 59 and grew up in a time when the nearest thing to technology was slide rules and reel-to-reel tape recorders. Like millions of others my age, I've learned to use computers, mobile phones, MP3 and so on. It's a very insulting and sweeping generalisation to say that 'older people are frightened of the internet'. Some of them are. Many are not. Millions of people have learned to use new technology and continue to add to their skills as new stuff comes out. The ability to learn is not confined to those under 40.

Nobody HAS to get online and nobody is forcing anyone. If people don't see any advantage for themselves in doing so, then fine, that's their choice. They don't have to make excuses. Sometimes new technology, brilliant though it is, doesn't meet someone's needs. I am like this with MP3: I have never been a person to have music in the background, preferring to sit and actually listen to music when I have it on. So, having tried MP3, I decided to revert to my CD player. The sound quality is better and it does everything I want better than an MP3 player can. That's my choice. I do believe that the internet revolution we have lived through is so all-encompassing that choosing never to access the internet is to exclude yourself from a lot, but as I say, that's down to individual choice.

And I don't know if you've ever used computers in a public library, but I have never been into one where there wasn't an appointment system, timed sessions and free tuition. So the pathetic picture you paint of a confused granny being shoved aside by 'desperate job seekers breathing down her neck' is fiction, in any well-run library. The government poured a lot of money into putting computers into every public library and contrary to what you seem to think, libraries are in general well-managed places that have a keen sense of their responsibilities as a social service to the public. They aren't going to waste that government money and they have to show to their auditors that they are providing access to all sections of the community to justify the money that has been spent.

leathersofa

"

sadly my father-in-law died last month. My mother-in-law hence allowed me to take over her finances. First act - the Car & House Insurance that she'd automatically renewed that month, total cost £580. As they were yet to start I was able to cancel them quick - though I was amazed at the 'hard sell' I got from the'over-50s friendly' Castle Cover,"

We had the very same thing with my MIL, except in her case it was a local broker with a nice friendly office staffed by nice friendly people with local accents, in her nice local high street. What wasn't so nice or friendly was that they were still quoting her nothing but comprehensive insurance rates for a car like hers that was new and worth £9000, when her car was 10 years old and worth about £850, and when she used it so little that thirdparty/fire/theft would have been more than adequate. I think this is not much different from fraud and worse in some ways because she automatically trusts local offices. She saved several hundred pounds a year when we got it sorted out.

Jacks_xxx

leathersofa wrote: »

I get very fed up with seeing women's magazines in particular publishing letters from older women saying they can't go online 'because they can't afford it' and that this means they are excluded from some things. Leaving aside the distinct possibility that this translates, in some cases, as 'I don't want to go online', I feel these magazines shouldn't encourage Luddism

Why the sarcastic quotes around 'because they can't afford it'? Perhaps they really can't? In your opinion, why do think they don't want to go online? Because I think lots of them are scared and panicky and wouldn't know where to begin. My mother in law is almost 80 and she is very worried about television going digital, She mentions it almost every time we see her. If she's panicking about operating a new remote control, how much distress would she be in trying to navigate a computer?

leathersofa wrote: »

I didn't write 'everyone, no matter how old or disabled, MUST get online, no excuses'.

You didn't, but you did call them luddites, make it clear that "luddism" is not something to be encouraged, and suggest that they weren't being truthful.

I certainly got the impression that you thought everybody should go online no matter what and that there was something wrong with people who didn't.

leathersofa wrote: »

I said that lack of money for computer and broadband access is no bar to getting online, because public libraries provide multiple computers and free tuition to anyone who wants it, and that the more widely this is publicised, the better. Many people still don't seem to know that this is the case and it needs to be loudly trumpeted. And magazines for older women, which I mentioned in my post, are just the place to do this. Some do, which is great.

My local library is in the centre of town, and in a not very nice area near all the bail hostels and homeless shelters. My mother in law would be afraid to go there.

From my own experience I know that there are queues for the newspapers as well as the computers. :eek:

I've had to use the Library at times when our pc has gone wrong and you are very conscious of the people who are waiting. It's always really over subscribed.

There's a time limit so sometimes you just get into your stride and you have to relinquish the machine to somebody else. For a new user who might do things slower than you or I would that could be quite off putting I think.

leathersofa wrote: »

I don't know how you define 'older people', but I'm 59 and grew up in a time when the nearest thing to technology was slide rules and reel-to-reel tape recorders. Like millions of others my age, I've learned to use computers, mobile phones, MP3 and so on.

So you *are* speaking from the pov of somebody who is comfortable with technology then?

leathersofa wrote: »

Nobody HAS to get online and nobody is forcing anyone.

No? But they do seem to be judging them a little bit harshly.

leathersofa wrote: »

I do believe that the internet revolution we have lived through is so all-encompassing that choosing never to access the internet is to exclude yourself from a lot, but as I say, that's down to individual choice.

I do too, but I get why people are scared of it. My mother in law has never even used a calculator so she has no frame of reference. When we got the internet in 1995 I had a steep learning curve. I thought it would be like Teletext! It's second nature to me nwo, but I haven'r forgotten how alien it was at first, and I had a computer at home to "practise" on and nobody around to see me get frustrated.

leathersofa wrote: »

And I don't know if you've ever used computers in a public library, but I have never been into one where there wasn't an appointment system, timed sessions and free tuition. So the pathetic picture you paint of a confused granny being shoved aside by 'desperate job seekers breathing down her neck' is fiction, in any well-run library. The government poured a lot of money into putting computers into every public library and contrary to what you seem to think, libraries are in general well-managed places that have a keen sense of their responsibilities as a social service to the public. They aren't going to waste that government money and they have to show to their auditors that they are providing access to all sections of the community to justify the money that has been spent.

As I said, I have used our local library for internet access. I can't imagine "shoved aside" exactly but I can imagine someone who doesn't know what they're doing feeling self conscious and uncomfortable faffing about whilst people tut and sigh.

Especially as - as I said above - in our area "access to all sections of the community" means people from the nearby bail hostels and homeless shelters. Some of them have very challenging behaviour.

Speaking purely for my mother in law I don't think that she would feel comfortable there, and the process of trying to learn something so different from anything she's ever experienced would make her feel upset, exposed and stupid.

My 65 year old father is much the same.

Those older ladies in the magazines you mention may well feel similarly.

Or perhaps they live in an area not well served by libraries and bus routes and are nervous about travelling into the nearest city centre to learn how to do something they don't recognise the value of?

I can understand that.

I'm so sorry, I've just seen how long this post is! :eek:

Ok, the bottom line is that the best way to help people who are not online is to help them - kindly and encouragingly, in any way we can.

Not to attack them for feeling differently to ourselves.

John_Pierpoint

My uncle and I (80+ & 60+) had fun on here experimenting with every day expressions that the MSE net nanny would turn into !!!!!!!.
(Childish name for small cat comes to mind). He was even more tickled pink when another MSE member, apparently of the female gender, joined him in the discussion.
We had originally logged on because an organisation had asked for memories of WW2 and he had sent in his, only for them to be published on a web site.
His number one advantage was that he already had QWERTY keyboard skills. The oldies need to realise that you can be anyone you want to be on the interweb.
That said there is a lot to be said for using the library computer, because when it freezes or demands a virus update etc. etc. etc. it is someone else's problem.

RAS

On the topic of banking facilities, this might be useful - http://www.moneymadeclear.org.uk/pdfs/bank_accounts.pdf - on page 5 is a list of all the basic bank accounts on the market and what facilities they have. People opening these do not need credit checks and allow direct debits etc.

But if you do not have access to a computer, you may not find it easily. So please share it with people who are not on-line.

The issue may be ID checks, which can be a nightmare if you do not have a passport or a driving licence, neither of which is cheap.

I am very fortunate that my local library is a few minutes walk away and I can book computer sessions up to 2 hours long. The way the machines are sited, all bar one ensures a reasonable amount of privacy. I know other councils only allow 30 minutes and charge for that. And for people in rural areas even that is a challenge. In one area I know the library is lovely but the only (weekly) bus allows people 2.5 hours between arrival and departure to complete all their weekly banking, shopping etc. Not much time for internet searches in that.

The local library here were running "get on-line" classes, which are lovely (having sat there whilst one went on), covering the absolute basics, like how to log on, what a word processing programme, e-mail and the tinternet are, then allowing people to come back later for 90 minutes on each subject, plus photography and computers. It was great to see the light bulbs going on in the learners' eyes. Since they run them with 4 maximum people at very quiet times, I think these work.

There are occasions however when some of the more challenging clients come in and it is a bit distracting. And I am aware that young mothers who come in with small children can get a lot of tutting whilst they try and sort out their CV.

The city centre library can be more interesting at times, but their security have a pretty tough attitude which does not confuse widening participation with safety and security for the rest of the population.

People have covered a lot of the problems for those who are not on-line. And sometimes those in power make choices that affect people without understanding the lack of options to those least well endowed with modern options:

1. Want to pay your council tax bill in my authority, three options, on-line, by direct debts, or in cash at a very limited number of offices in the city centre.

Which assumes you have computer access and a bank card, or a bank account which allows DDs, or can afford the £3.50 reduced day ticket you need to get into the city to access the office and are not working during the office hours. No wonder people end up failing to pay their CT.

2. Want to try and save, operate a bank account? Even in cities, that can mean a long walk in some areas, or a bus ride. In rural areas, the only bank may not open at times that allow it to be access by someone using public transport.

3. Want to access the cheapest supermarket deals? Another £3.50 for an off-peak bus ticket, or a three mile walk there and back through an area that has seen riots and gang shootings. There is simply nowhere within walking distance that does cheap unpackaged vegetables and fruit (2 mile radius) so the options are a bulk pack which is too large for your needs at a cost you cannot afford or nothing.

Having said that as someone who does not use my mobile phone much, barely texts, but uses a range of internet facilities like blogs and wikis, I was stunned by the response of some young people to a communal wiki I set up. "But it is so hard, it is not like just texting, you have to format it!"

leathersofa

#24 - I acknowledge your post, but only so that you will know I have read it. I don't intend to bother arguing with you. Goodbye.

vivatifosi

As I mentioned, I work in a library and just wanted to say that we do everything we can to help people get the right side of the digital divide. Libraries can be busy and although we can't always be on hand to help people - I am looking after about 20 pcs by myself - we do everything we can to make sure that people can get the help they need.

Generally people are a little computer savvy and need help knowing things like how to set up e-mail accounts. These are the people we also signpost to MyGuide as they can teach themselves how to use computers. Those that really don't even know how to switch on a computer we take time to tell about taster sessions and get them signed up to one hour free one-to-one sessions. In the time I've been working there I've seen people who really knew nothing, not even what a mouse was, go on to be competent and regular users.

If people really want to know how to use a PC, most people in public libraries will do what they can to get them started.

Jacks_xxx

leathersofa wrote: »

#24 - I acknowledge your post, but only so that you will know I have read it. I don't intend to bother arguing with you. Goodbye.

Fair enough.

I don't want to argue with you either!

Your posts made me think of my mother in law, and how I know she feels, and I just wanted to give that alternative point of view.

vivatifosi

I've been thinking a bit more about this issue overnight. As I see it there are two main constraints to people getting on line. The first is a skills one, as discussed at length above there are numerous organisations working to help such people, with libraries at the forefront.

The second issue is a cost one. It is worth mentioning at this point the large number of free public wifi points that is increasing. In my library we have free wifi and there are numerous other free wifi spots in town for those wishing to use them, as well as some for which there is a charge. Our library wifi has no time constraints, people can sit and use them for as long as their laptop battery hangs on. People are increasingly using them to enable data on their mobile phones: I know a few savvy types who don't even have a data contract, they just enable free wifi hotspots and go there to access the net. With increasing convergence and mobile net access, this will surely become even more commonplace. Smart phones will soon be the norm, so people won't even need to buy a laptop.

sidewayssyd

2 weeks ago, my 93yr old neighbour remarked that she rented her two TVs. We checked her bank statement and I was horrified to see that she is paying £24 per month for two TVs. With her permission, I spoke to the rental company, Box Clever, for her and found she has rented from them since 1986 with the last upgrade in 2003. I was appalled to think how much money she has paid out for two TVs that are effectively worthless in money terms.
I am a keen user of Freecycle, the email based re-cycling system and with a week I had replaced her two TVs with identical items being given away by people who were upgrading theirs. We'll also be obtaining Freeview boxes for her so she'll be fixed up before the analogue switch-off.
I have read that thousands of perfectly good TVs are being taken to the tip when they could be given to those in need.
I would urge everyone to look at Freecycle (just Google it and you'll find your local service to subscribe to), especially anyone who's renting a TV