Train operators seek no frills airlines-style fare structure

robt_2

Mark_Hewitt wrote: »

The way the franchises are awarded gives no incentive for increased capacity.
IMO, the revenue they receive should be based upon the loading of a particular train, e.g. the number of seats + safe standing numbers, and if a train is loaded beyond this they get less money per passenger. Thus giving them incentive to put on more carriages and more rolling stock. Rather than just cram as many people in as possible then claim there's nothing they can do about it.

There are no more carriages to 'put on' - that is the whole problem. Passenger companies do not own stock anyway - they use what they are told to use by the Government.

Running_On_Empty

Mark_Hewitt wrote: »

The way the franchises are awarded gives no incentive for increased capacity.
IMO, the revenue they receive should be based upon the loading of a particular train, e.g. the number of seats + safe standing numbers, and if a train is loaded beyond this they get less money per passenger. Thus giving them incentive to put on more carriages and more rolling stock. Rather than just cram as many people in as possible then claim there's nothing they can do about it.

The train operating companies cannot simply put on more rolling stock:
Station platforms in many cases are not long enough to accommodate longer trains.

The root of the problem lies in the chronic lack of investment in rail travel dating back many decades. This is related to government transport policies from 1960s onwards where road building was priority.
There has been considerable investment in rail travel dating back to the 1990s for example the upgrade to the West Coast Main Line and now the proposed High Speed 2 rail link from London to Scotland.
One of the problems is that the process of getting any infrastructure from page to stage takes so very long involving public enquiries where every interest group has its say. The NIMBY element has prevented much of the progress that has been needed.
No doubt the same NIMBYs are the same people who complain loudest that the roads, trains and airports are too crowded!

Mark_Hewitt

robt wrote: »

There are no more carriages to 'put on'

It's not beyond the wit of man to perhaps, - build more?!

- that is the whole problem. Passenger companies do not own stock anyway - they use what they are told to use by the Government.

That is indeed the problem with so many middle levels creaming off the cash.

robt_2

Mark_Hewitt wrote: »

It's not beyond the wit of man to perhaps, - build more?!

Nobody said otherwise.

But it has zero relevance to your post which said that operators should put more carriages on or they receive less subsidy per passenger. I will state once again: passenger companies do not own any trains. They lease what they are told to lease, and use what they are told to use on each service. Therefore, your suggestion can not possibly work. You are suggesting penalising passenger companies for something they can not improve.

A minimum franchise of 25-30 years is needed for an operating company to invest in new trains.

Simon11

Another issue with your idea

"the revenue they receive should be based upon the loading of a particular train, e.g. the number of seats + safe standing numbers, and if a train is loaded beyond this they get less money per passenger."

How will you count these numbers? You have figures for advance tickets but have no idea about walkups

Train managers on VT do take counts of the number of passengers on a train, but its easy to make a mistake normally its only done 1-2 during a journey when a train stops are numerous station

robt_2

Many (but not nearly enough) trains have passenger counting equipment these days

Jeff_Bridges_hair

robt wrote: »

Nobody said otherwise.

But it has zero relevance to your post which said that operators should put more carriages on or they receive less subsidy per passenger. I will state once again: passenger companies do not own any trains. They lease what they are told to lease, and use what they are told to use on each service. Therefore, your suggestion can not possibly work. You are suggesting penalising passenger companies for something they can not improve.

A minimum franchise of 25-30 years is needed for an operating company to invest in new trains.

And not forgetting that there will be longer platforms needed and this cannot be provided at lots of stations. Then you have to work out how to get them turned around at the terminal stations quick enough to get more trains coming in. Its quite difficult and something that has been the bane of the railways for years now.

Mark_Hewitt

Simon11 wrote: »

How will you count these numbers? You have figures for advance tickets but have no idea about walkups

There is automatic counting equipment available. But you don't have to count every passenger on every journey. A suitable sample size would be sufficient.

Simon11

"There is automatic counting equipment available"

It won't be accurate and train operating companys will demand this.

How would it work? Weight of the carriage or count the people entering and leaving the doors? Both have serious floors

I've worked for VT in the past and if this was a worth while they would have had them installed.

But knowing TOC's they would only install these if either the goverment either put it in their contract or it was worthwhile for the TOC to do it ( However the costs wouldn't be worth it for the benefits). Therefore the goverment would end up paying for it

And it won't be cheap!

robt_2

Simon11 wrote: »

"There is automatic counting equipment available"

It won't be accurate and train operating companys will demand this.

How would it work? Weight of the carriage or count the people entering and leaving the doors? Both have serious floors

I've worked for VT in the past and if this was a worth while they would have had them installed.

Actually, the government have called for all new stock to include it, and it is very accurate. Both methods you mention are already in use (albeit they are vastly more complex than you describe) every single day all around the world, including the UK.

And VT do have a form of it installed, on the Pendolinos at least.