tuition fees - cap raised to £9k

Cleaver

lynzpower wrote: »

Why do people think that some courses that need minimum amount of tuition need less work all round? Ie the 8 hours is all you do. or that you think that some courses less "worthy" so clearly they must need a lot less work overall. Ie you can get a degree in a year. Well no, you can get the tuition over adn done with in a year but you still need 6 months for a dissertation and the rest of the research.

I have a 2:1 degree in Geography from a redbrick top twentyish university and I had around 8 hours of lectures a week and probably put in another 10 hours work myself each week. I wasn't particularly in to my studies though. If I recall correctly I did three terms a year, 10 weeks, 10 weeks and 9 weeks. I don't remember doing any studying during my holidays. So I did around 18 hours a week for 29 weeks of the year. Or to put it another way, around 1,566 hours during three years of study. Not really that taxing to get a 2:1 from a pretty decent uni, and many people had similar habits to me.

Let's say I decided to do really knuckle down and do a 50 hour week, made up of 40 hours during the working week (including a bit of study during the evening) and five hours each Saturday and Sunday. Let's reduce the holidays too so that you have two weeks at Christmas, two breaks of two weeks, two breaks of one week and a summer holiday of six weeks. That leaves 38 weeks of study per year.

So, if I do 50 hours a week for 38 weeks that totals 1,900 hours.

So by caculations it'd be feasible to do my degree in a year. It would just need a different mindset from the student and from the university, although most universities are so stuck in the past that I could never see it happening.

Hauptmann

Cleaver wrote: »

Let's say I decided to do really knuckle down and do a 50 hour week, made up of 40 hours during the working week (including a bit of study during the evening) and five hours each Saturday and Sunday. Let's reduce the holidays too so that you have two weeks at Christmas, two breaks of two weeks, two breaks of one week and a summer holiday of six weeks. That leaves 38 weeks of study per year.

So, if I do 50 hours a week for 38 weeks that totals 1,900 hours.

So by caculations it'd be feasible to do my degree in a year. It would just need a different mindset from the student and from the university, although most universities are so stuck in the past that I could never see it happening.

I think even the keenest and brightest student might burn out at that rate.
My son is studying physics at the moment and has about 22 hours of classes a week - seems a lot to me. He really is working hard.

Much is made of so-called 'crap' degrees - everyone mentions Media Studies. I bet the proportion of Media Studies students is pretty small. Most of my son's friends who have gone to university seem to be doing pretty worthwhile subjects, sciences, history, geography, engineering.
I think the £9k fee (which, I am sure, is what WILL be charged) is totally bonkers and the 'inflation+3%' interest rate is truly alarming. This country has lost interest in investing in the future.
My son tells me fees in Germany are 800Euro, in Holland 1500Euro and free in Sweden. Surely we can afford something similar? All of those countries have a similar (or higher) proportion of youngsters going into HE.

Where are the teachers, doctors etc. going to come from? Presumably in a few years time we'll be told there is a 'skills shortage' and so we need higher immigration of suitably qualified workers,

WhiteHorse

Hopefully, this will see a rapid decline in the number of useless degrees.

Cleaver

WhiteHorse wrote: »

Hopefully, this will see a rapid decline in the number of useless degrees.

I think 'useless degree' is an oxymoron. Some might not be great value for money or aren't in subjects that guarantee a job, but a degree is still seen as a benchmark qualification by most employers.

Hauptmann

WhiteHorse wrote: »

Hopefully, this will see a rapid decline in the number of useless degrees.

Can you provide a list of these please? (I know about surfing studies, and spa management, but they get mentioned all the time and have probably only got about 100 students between them).
I supposed 'Arabic Studies' was considered rather useless 15 years ago - bet it offers a good career nowadays!

WhiteHorse

Hauptmann wrote: »

IMy son is studying physics at the moment ...

Good for him!

... and has about 22 hours of classes a week - seems a lot to me.

Considering that the average working week is 38 hours, then he's in for a shock.

Much is made of so-called 'crap' degrees - everyone mentions Media Studies. I bet the proportion of Media Studies students is pretty small.

Unfortunately not. File it with a horde of other nonsense non-subjects. There are some 'universities' that offer little else.

Most of my son's friends who have gone to university seem to be doing pretty worthwhile subjects, sciences, history, geography, engineering.

Good for them. Be careful of the 'science' label though, as there are bogus subjects there too.

This country has lost interest in investing in the future.

It's short-termist 'do anything to get elected' politicians that are the problem.

My son tells me fees in Germany are 800Euro, in Holland 1500Euro and free in Sweden.

They don't issue an enormous number of bogus degrees. They aren't bankrupt either.

All of those countries have a similar (or higher) proportion of youngsters going into HE.

They are falling into the British trap - using universities as a way of fiddling the unemployment figures and imparting a false feelgood factor.

Where are the teachers, doctors etc. going to come from?

See next answer. Those few still interested in real subjects like medicine will have no problem at all paying off their debt.

Presumably in a few years time we'll be told there is a 'skills shortage' and so we need higher immigration of suitably qualified workers,

There already is. So many young people want to be 'pop stars', or do rubbish degrees in subjects that don't exist.

WhiteHorse

Cleaver wrote: »

... but a degree is still seen as a benchmark qualification by most employers.

I have been an employer and I can assure you that that is no longer the case. Yes, years ago, a degree guaranteed intelligence and a high degree of literacy at the very least. But no longer.

I have seen numerous 'graduates' who were barely literate (some universities run remedial literacy classes for first year students. What does that tell you?). I have seen utter imbeciles granted degrees. What then is the modern degree worth? It now depends on the university and the subject. It is no longer a carte blanche.

Blair wanted to send everyone to university. What would that make degrees worth? When everyone has something, does it have any value over and above the ordinary? No, not even that.

Here's the brutal truth that appertains in the hard world of commerce and industry. Many (but obviously, not all), 'degrees' are now actually regarded as a disqualification, as the holder will be regarded as an airy-fairy, useless layabout.

WhiteHorse

Hauptmann wrote: »

Can you provide a list of these please? (I know about surfing studies, and spa management, but they get mentioned all the time and have probably only got about 100 students between them).

The UCAS guide.

I supposed 'Arabic Studies' was considered rather useless 15 years ago - bet it offers a good career nowadays!

Languages have never been regarded as useless. In some cases, oversubscribed perhaps, but never useless.

olly300

WhiteHorse wrote: »

They are falling into the British trap - using universities as a way of fiddling the unemployment figures and imparting a false feelgood factor.

The CBI wanted more graduates not the government.

WhiteHorse wrote: »

Those few still interested in real subjects like medicine will have no problem at all paying off their debt.

Medical students have had trouble getting training places for the last few years. This has lead to some potential junior doctors going aboard to train. They aren't likely to come back either.

WhiteHorse wrote: »

There already is. So many young people want to be 'pop stars', or do rubbish degrees in subjects that don't exist.

What is a rubbish degree subject?

I looked the requirements for doing Golf Management last year. Both universities that did the course made it clear that the course was vocational, and you couldn't do or continue with the course if you couldn't get the right type of work at a golf course.

I've also heard time and time again that a History graduate is more likely to be unemployed than a Media Studies one.

In fact I know from the people I graduated with years ago the people who had difficulty getting jobs where Geography graduates. Those who did random subjects like Psychology and Politics knowing that it would be harder to get a job compared to say a Science graduate really pulled their finger out in their final year to ensure they got a decent one.

Cleaver

WhiteHorse wrote: »

I have been an employer and I can assure you that that is no longer the case. Yes, years ago, a degree guaranteed intelligence and a high degree of literacy at the very least. But no longer.

I agree, a degree is very commonplace now and doesn't mean the same as it used to.

WhiteHorse wrote: »

I have seen numerous 'graduates' who were barely literate

Where have you 'seen' these people? Does your company employee them? If so, why? Or do you interview them? Why are you interviewing them if their application showed that they were barely literate?

WhiteHorse wrote: »

I have seen utter imbeciles granted degrees. What then is the modern degree worth? It now depends on the university and the subject.

...and, most importantly, the individual.

WhiteHorse wrote: »

Blair wanted to send everyone to university. What would that make degrees worth? When everyone has something, does it have any value over and above the ordinary? No, not even that.

You're correct in that degrees, generally, are devalued compare to thirty or forty years ago. I think a lot of people would agree with that. What bothers me is this claptrap rhetoric about modern graduates:

"I interviewed someone with a 2:2 in media studies and they can't even spell... I'd not even interview someone with a degree nowadays... degrees aren't worth the paper they're written on... you'd be better off doing a paper-round for three years, at least it's some work experience..."

Blah, blah, blah. Experience and the person is the most important thing, but if degrees are becoming oh-so common place then I wouldn't want to be without one. You look 'worse' than the person who has one in a lot of cases.

WhiteHorse wrote: »

Here's the brutal truth that appertains in the hard world of commerce and industry. Many (but obviously, not all), 'degrees' are now actually regarded as a disqualification, as the holder will be regarded as an airy-fairy, useless layabout.

That's complete rubbish in my humble opinion.