Inheritance Left in a Will, & Associated ‘Joint Account’ Holders

RAS

Mojisola wrote: »

As his children are the executors, they will probably go ahead with filling in the probate form as they feel justified in doing so and will take possession of the account. It will be left to your Nan to challenge the executors' decision.

Assuming the bank is still allowing your Nan access to the joint account, I would move most of the money into an account in her name. If it's not available to them to share between themselves, they will have to pay to legally challenge her action.

Agreed get the monet moved into an account in nan's name NOW.

The minute that they go to a solicitor to chase nan for this money they will be advised that they are stupid.

Savvy_Sue

**curlywurly** wrote: »

This is a very good point. From what I've read, I don't think OP's nan would want to change her will to leave everything to charity, but she may be able to change her will to leave the property (which I assume is now hers) to OP's side of the family. It would depend on how the wills were set up (there are some minor circumstances - "mirror wills" - where the survivor can't change some of the privions) and also on how the house is held.

Not necessarily: it depends how they held the house before he died. I can never remember which way round it is, but there's tenants in common and joint tenants: one way the whole house passes to the survivor on the first death, the other way the survivor's share can be willed wherever.

Now, my dad died last December, and his half of the house did NOT automatically pass to Mum. If Mum tries to sell the house, the first thing anyone will see when they do a land registry search is that she doesn't own all of it, so it can't be sold just by her.

I suspect that's what has happened in this case, at least if they were given proper legal advice when they wrote their wills.

**curlywurly**

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

it depends how they held the house before he died. I can never remember which way round it is, but there's tenants in common and joint tenants: one way the whole house passes to the survivor on the first death, the other way the survivor's share can be willed wherever.

Tenants in common - the survivor's share passes by will/intestacy. Joint tenants - the survivor's share passes to the other owner(s).

But, also, there may be some kind of trust or method set up in OP's grandma's situation to prevent the survivor from passing the whole house to their side of the family.

OP, you should check this out as well, and take the opportunity to try to persuade your nan to get her affairs in order, if that is possible to do at this time which must be very stressful for her.

Please let us know how you get on.

Emmzi

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Death/Preparation/DG_10029468



Money in joint accounts

The deceased person may have held money with another person in a joint bank or building society account. Normally this means that the surviving joint owner automatically owns the money. The money does not form part of the deceased person's estate for the purpose of administration and therefore does not need to be dealt with by the executor or administrator.


Get her to open a new bank account now, preferabley with a different bank, and not tell anyone which other bank it is, in case they try any freezing assets nonsense.

What nasty pieces of work. I'm sure their dad would be proud....

scream85

Hi all,

Thanks again for all your help, advice and comments. I just thought I would update you, and to help anyone else who finds themselves in a similar situation.

Ive now had the opportunity to speak with a solicitor that specialises in Probate, and what they have told me is quite clear. They have also written me a letter to present to the cretchins, just in case they are in any doubt about our position over the whole situation. The jist of it is as follows:

'Joint names for Convienience' is not a recognised probate terminology and does not have any legal impact. If the account was held in joint names, the money in the account will automatically pass by survivorship to the deceased's partner. The only exception to this is if the couple had made a declaration that the account was to be held as tenants in common rather than jointly (i.e. held in two seperate shares). If the son and daughter are to have any claim on the money, the account would have to FIRST be set up as 'tenants in common', (which is rare), and SECONDLY they would need to prove that it was not intended for the money in the account to pass by survivorship. Acceptable proof in court would have to consist of written, signed and independently witnessed evidence (usually within the will itself), stating that under no uncertain terms the money was to pass to the remaining joint account holder. In the unlikely event that both the first and second point is possible, they would still need to prove that the money was solely deposited by the deceased i.e. unless evidence is provided to prove what amount the deceased contributed to the account, it would be deemed that the remaining account holder deposited the full amount. The reason for stating the amount of money in the joint account as part of probate is for 'Inheritance Tax' purposes only. My step grandads estate will not even come close to the threshold, thus there is no issue there at all.

So basically in a nut shell they have no claim on the money. Our approach to the situation is still undecided, as unfortunately they now own (pending probate) half of nan's house, as that was left in the will, thus they could be awkward further down the line if they choose to. We have no issue with them owning our Step Grandads half of the house, as this was what was decided by both my Nan and him when they got married all those years ago. It is fair because when they met, my step grandad sold his house and bought half of my nans when they moved into together, which meant they both had cash in their pockets and despite being in their 70's, travelled the world together, bought a new car and seriously enjoyed their retirement. Something neither of them would have been able to do had they of not met each other and been able to release funds.

As my Nan says, they both had the time of their life over the last 18 years, and although he's gone, she has such fond memories of their time spent together, which gives her a great deal of comfort.

Regards the situation, one scenario we are considering (although there is no legal need to do it) is that Nan offers to pay 1/3 of the funeral costs out of the money (even though the will clearly states it is to come out of the estate), as a 'good will' jesture, in an attempt and on the condition that they back off and stop causing trouble. This may not only try to soften tension which could cause problems further down the line due to their connection to the house, but Nan has also said that she would like to contribute to it for her own benefit, as a way for her to pay her last respects and say good bye.

I could tell you some stories about what his children have already done that you simply wouldn't believe but here is probably not the place lol. The main thing is that my Nan is protected, and despite them wanting to put both their dad and my Nan in a home many years ago, we now have some comfort knowing that there is some money there to prevent such a thing from happening until a time where my Nan needs 24hr care that no amount of money could possible provide. I hope they haven't banked on being able to sell the house anytime soon, because I think they are going to have a long wait.................

Thanks again for everyone's input. It really was appreciated

**curlywurly**

That sounds like a good compromise. It's tempting to tell them where to go,but a family rift is not pleasant, and hopefully the other side of the family will see the error of their ways, accept your nan's kind gesture, and move on.

clairehi

scream85 wrote: »

Hi all,

unfortunately they now own (pending probate) half of nan's house, as that was left in the will, thus they could be awkward further down the line if they choose to. ... I hope they haven't banked on being able to sell the house anytime soon, because I think they are going to have a long wait.................

glad your solicitor has given you some good advice. i think your step-outlaws have got themselves confused between HMRCs rules for valuing the estate for IHT purposes, and probate law re joint assets.

anyway i would also ask your friendly solicitor to advise on the house situation as you seem to be worried about it - can he/she confirm the will is written in such a way to ensure they cannot force a sale while your Nan is still living? or are you worried about what happens when she passes on?

ps although I can understand your Nan wanting to make a peace offering re funeral costs, will this offer be accepted in that spirit or will they just come back asking her for more?

dotchas

I just want to say how lovely for two people in their 70's to fall in love and have such a ball in their latter years.But it makes me so sad that some family members can't see how your step grandad wanted to provide for his elderly wife,who was actually their step grandma.
I wish your grandma a long long happy life...............

scream85

clairehi wrote: »

glad your solicitor has given you some good advice. i think your step-outlaws have got themselves confused between HMRCs rules for valuing the estate for IHT purposes, and probate law re joint assets.

anyway i would also ask your friendly solicitor to advise on the house situation as you seem to be worried about it - can he/she confirm the will is written in such a way to ensure they cannot force a sale while your Nan is still living? or are you worried about what happens when she passes on?

ps although I can understand your Nan wanting to make a peace offering re funeral costs, will this offer be accepted in that spirit or will they just come back asking her for more?

They didn't get themselves confused at all. They knew full well what the law was regarding 'Joint Assets', they were just gutted that some money was left to my Nan and subsequently tried it on and made out that they had a legal entitlement to it. Calling our bluffs basically as a last ditch, deperate attempt to sign over the money to them. They tried to take full control of my step granddads money a long time ago, but fortunately, he was having none of it. The son has already got power of attourney on his wife's mother's assets and property..... despite being of sound mind, she now sits in an old people's home, whilst her house is rented out, with the rental income going to the son-in-law. Regards the money, £3k a year is transferred across into their private bank accounts to take full advance of gift allowance. Hence we are a little apprehensive of their future surprises!!

Regards the house situation, our only concern is that should my Nan ever have to go into a home (which I hope she doesn't), then they may try to force a sale on the house, before she passes away, which we do not want. At the end of the day she holds 50% of the property in her name, so one would hope that a sale cannot be forced unless both parties are in agreement, I could understand it being different if they had 51% share and her 49%. This is something we will be looking at in the near future.

Other concerns RE: the house is that they are trying to pressure her to do maintenance and repairs to the house using her money, that really don't need doing. Extra work to the house will improve the value, without costing them a penny. It's this kind of petty thing we are worried about really.

When anything happens to her, I have no doubt they will be arguing about the contents of the house and who has what. The only thing I want in such an event is some of the photos (which can be copied) and one piece of jewellery I bought my nan a few years back, to remember her by.

scream85

dotchas wrote: »

I just want to say how lovely for two people in their 70's to fall in love and have such a ball in their latter years.But it makes me so sad that some family members can't see how your step grandad wanted to provide for his elderly wife,who was actually their step grandma.
I wish your grandma a long long happy life...............

Couldn't agree more. We were so pleased when they got married, they really were a great couple, and both were able to do things in their life that they would not have otherwise been able to had they not met each other. And they had someone to do those things with.

Nan will be fine. She has a lot of family around her who care a great deal for her, with several grand children and great grand children to keep her occupied

Thanks for your kind post