Scary council tax letter!

DanielleR

Heya,

So this a bit of a long story but I'll try and condense it as much as possible.

5 years ago I moved into a shared house in London. I was a student and all my flatmates were students. I was on the electoral register and my flatmates never bothered to enrol.

I had a bit of a dodgy landlord, only had a mobile for him and an email address. I know his name but we had a contract for 12 months which I then kept going on at him to renew. Within this contract all bills except electricity was included.

Fast forward to 2008 and I graduated from university. I started to get council tax bills. I spoke to my landlord and he assured me this was covered in the cost of my rent.

Then the letters started to talk about court action etc. I continued to chase my landlord for a new contract and also his contact details. At the time I was unemployed and tried (and failed) to get JSA, housing benefit etc but without my landlord's details I got nothing.

I graduated in July 2008 and then at the end of November 2008 I moved back in with my parents in another area. Before I left I spoke to the council and explained my situation with my landlord and that he assured me that my council tax is included in my rent. They said OK leave it with them.

It's now October 2010 and I've moved in with my fiance and his dad. I was registered on the electoral roll at my old address and have recently changed to this one. Lo and behold I came home on Thursday to a letter from this council demanding £543.50 in council tax for 2010/2011 and that it was "subject to court proceedings".

What do I do? I've thought about sending them a letter and:

• asking them for the breakdown of the costs
• remarking on my surprise due to my agreement with my landlord
• remarking that I wasn't the only person living in the house despite being the only person on the electoral roll there. There were 3 part time students (ie. not eligible for free council tax)

Is this the right thing to do? What are my rights? I don't have a housing contract from this time as I have stated and why have they only sent this to me now?

Any advice would be REALLY appreciated as I don't have £543.50 to just pay them... especially when I was assured it was already part of my rent

DVardysShadow

Its council tax for 2010 - 2011. But you last lived there in 2008. As far as I can see you are liable from July 2008 to November 2008. Prior to that, you were a student and I believe exempt. So can you clarify?

mizzbiz

The above post is spot on. You're not liable for this year as you weren't living there but you would be liable for the gap between graduation and leaving the property unless you have something in writing to say otherwise.

tbs624

DanielleR wrote: »

we had a contract for 12 months which I then kept going on at him to renew. Within this contract all bills except electricity was included.

Fast forward to 2008 and I graduated from university. I started to get council tax bills. I spoke to my landlord and he assured me this was covered in the cost of my rent.

Then the letters started to talk about court action etc.

Did you personally contact the CT dept to talk to them about this?

Was the property registered as an HMO (House in Multiple Occupation)? The LL *is* responsible for the CT if it was an HMO

DanielleR wrote: »

I continued to chase my landlord for a new contract and also his contact details. At the time I was unemployed and tried (and failed) to get JSA, housing benefit etc but without my landlord's details I got nothing.

If the LL was non-resident at the property and your first tenancy was an AST (assured shorthold tenancy) then when a Fixed Term contract expires the law allows for what is called a statutory periodic tenancy to arise, if the Ts remain in place and the LL has not sought a court order for repossession. All the terms of the original contract apply except for determination (ie when/how the tenancy will end) There should not have been an issue with this for HB/LHA

DanielleR wrote: »

I graduated in July 2008 and then at the end of November 2008 I moved back in with my parents in another area. Before I left I spoke to the council and explained my situation with my landlord and that he assured me that my council tax is included in my rent. They said OK leave it with them.

Did you get the name of the person to whom you spoke? Was any of this confirmed in writing by you /the council?

DanielleR wrote: »

It's now October 2010 and I've moved in with my fiance and his dad. I was registered on the electoral roll at my old address and have recently changed to this one. Lo and behold I came home on Thursday to a letter from this council demanding £543.50 in council tax for 2010/2011 and that it was "subject to court proceedings".

Do you still have that original tenancy agreement? You will be able to show when you moved from the property by rent payment dates, settling of final utility bills etc.

Ring the CT debt people first thing on Monday morning and speak to them yourself - arrange to go in in person, if necessary. Find out which periods of time the debt relates to and if only you have been charged. As th eothers say, you cannot be charged for a period of time when you weren't at the address



.

tbs624

DVardysShadow wrote: »

Its council tax for 2010 - 2011. But you last lived there in 2008. As far as I can see you are liable from July 2008 to November 2008. Prior to that, you were a student and I believe exempt. So can you clarify?

Except if the CT *was* included in the rent - either because the property was an HMO and/or the tenancy agreement clearly states that the CT was included in the rent. Student Ts must get certs of exemption from their Uni & either pass them to the LL if he is liable for CT or give them direct to the Council if the T is liable..

CIS may post and correct any errors with the hierarchy of liability

DanielleR

I think they are only charging me from the time I graduated as I was covered by my exemption letter from my university.

However in terms of my original contracts etc... I've moved twice since then and I have a lot of stuff in storage. I wouldn't even know where to start looking.

I have no idea how the house was registered, but I would assume that he's done it as a single occupancy to save tax money (always asked for rent in cash and had a penchant for flying eastern europeans in to sleep on our kitchen floor whenever anything needed to be done)

If I do end up having to pay this back will they allow me to pay it in installaments?

I think, legally, I don't have a leg to stand on as I don't have anything written down to hand.

tbs624

You can usually agree a payment plan, but be aware that if you fail to stick to the repayments the Council can ask the Mags Court to issue a liability order.

Would it not be worth poking through the stuff you have in storage if finding that tenancy agreement might help you save yourself several hundred quid? Do you keep in touch with your fellow Ts and, if so, would any of them be likely to have retained a copy?

Do check with the local Council on the HMO issue as this may help you. If the property would fall under their definition of an HMO then the LL *would* be responsible for the CT , regardless of whether he failed to obtain a licence. Depends on no of tenants as unrelated folk, no of storeys, whether additional/selective licensing is in place in that area etc

LLs who should licence but don't can face hefty fines (20k) and can be issued with a Rent Repayment Order, to reimburse the Ts who lived there whilst it was unlicensed btw.

olly300

DanielleR wrote: »

I think they are only charging me from the time I graduated as I was covered by my exemption letter from my university.

Then you need to check exactly the time period they are demanding money for.

DanielleR wrote: »

However in terms of my original contracts etc... I've moved twice since then and I have a lot of stuff in storage. I wouldn't even know where to start looking.

Then unfortunately you are just going to spend a weekend down at the storage facility looking for those letters unless you want to deal with a nasty council tax department taking you to court.

Off course you could just pay up if you can afford it.

DanielleR wrote: »

I have no idea how the house was registered, but I would assume that he's done it as a single occupancy to save tax money (always asked for rent in cash and had a penchant for flying eastern europeans in to sleep on our kitchen floor whenever anything needed to be done)

That's not relevant.

DanielleR wrote: »

If I do end up having to pay this back will they allow me to pay it in installaments?

Go to the storage facility and look for the letters.

Then contact the council asap (first verbally then in writing) and point out the house is a HMO.

I had stuff in storage at one point and I knew to put all correspondence I thought I didn't need in a box where I could find them. Then all other correspondence I though I may need I kept with me. So yes I did have to lug around a box of documents but that saved me problems when I had an argument with a landlord about my deposit.

CIS

I think they are only charging me from the time I graduated as I was covered by my exemption letter from my university.

Ive seen a few cases recently where we haven't been advised that the studebt occupiers left around 5 years ago and they are still shown as resident with an outstanding charge as we have no records on who has been lving at the property.

I think they are only charging me from the time I graduated as I was covered by my exemption letter from my university.

Did you actually advise the council you had left ?. 90% of the time these problems come about as a person doesn't advise the council that they have actually left.

Fast forward to 2008 and I graduated from university. I started to get council tax bills. I spoke to my landlord and he assured me this was covered in the cost of my rent.

Unless it fell under the defintion of an HMO then the L/L can put what he wants in a T/A however it can't override legislation.

If the property is an HMO then you couldn't have claimed Council Tax Benefit in any case as you'd have had no Council Tax liability.

• remarking that I wasn't the only person living in the house despite being the only person on the electoral roll there. There were 3 part time students (ie. not eligible for free council tax)

Just because they weren't on the electoral list doesn't say that the council weren't aware that they were resident. The first thing you do in council tax recovery is contact the people for who you have details for and then look for the others later.

Since 1 April 2004 a student cannot be held jointly liable with a non student if they hold the same level of interest in the property (e.g if your all tenants then the student is not liable). The problem with this is that you would need to show that you held a joint tenancy and the other occs weren't just lodgers etc or that the landlord is liable as an HMO.

If the other occupiers claimed Council Tax Benefit then its likely that the council do have some records of then being resident - CTB records are very good for tracing people.

DanielleR

Sorry to resseruct an old thread but I'm still battling this problem and I really need some clarification in order to make sure I get this right.

I went to CAB and showed them all my paperwork that I had. They said that the one thing I really need is other people's tenancy agreements to prove that I wasn't the only occupant.

I've managed to get one from another person who lived there, who again, was assured that CT was included in the rent.

I've found out the property was not registered as an HMO and if I can prove this then I am not liable.

I have one other person who has a tenancy agreement that they can dig out, and another 2 who said they did but then I've not been able to get in touch with at all again. My thoughts are they are scared they will get into trouble even though I assured them that they won't.

My questions are

If I can provide this other tenancy agreement, even if the dates don't match up entirely with the other tenant will this be proof (Both the tenancy agreements, to my knowledge have ROOM 2 and ROOM 3 written on them)?

Will the council demand more than the two tenancy agreements I have been able to get?

I've found many conflicting reports on what an HMO is? Could anybody clarify this for me (I was led to believe it's at least 3 seperate tenants/households under one roof that share some common space but have their own room etc)

Having emailed the council tax people one has assured me that if I can provide information that it was an HMO I will not be liable, whereas I was then told that I can prove it they will investigate further and then maybe "work out who owes what" out of the tenants? Is this wrong?

The council have really hacked me off though, I spoke to them back in Jan and they said they were launching an investigation and would do an inspection of the property and told me that I was no longer liable. It wasn't until I phoned to see where my written letter I had requested and why the outstanding debt searches hadn't been removed from my credit file that I discovered they had been "refused entry" and I was, once again, liable for the cost.


Sorry for the epic length of this, it's really playing on my mind and I'm terrified the baliffs are going to turn up before I get this last tenancy agreement.

DanielleR

Bump? Please... anybody, any advice please. I'm so ridiculously upset/stressed I don't know what to do