Defrauded! No help from CC company

diamonddogsuk

OK, we seem to have everything we need to take this forward with the police and the card issuer, so thanks to everyone, especially chattychappy who offered constructive advice.

CLAPTON

the way I see it

the OP has a thief living in their house
the thief stole the card.. I understand that
but how did the thief get the PIN number?

then once the deed was found out the OP did nothing to safeguard against further theft (
-like kicking the thief out
-or changing the PIN number
-or ensuring the post was safe)

and the OP thinks that their own failure to safeguard their own property is MBNA's fault

chattychappy

CLAPTON wrote: »

and the OP thinks that their own failure to safeguard their own property is MBNA's fault

MBNA have failed to safeguard their own property - they only have recourse to the OP on the grounds of gross negligence/fraud.

CLAPTON

chattychappy wrote: »

MBNA have failed to safeguard their own property - they only have recourse to the OP on the grounds of gross negligence/fraud.

possibly so; they may indeed have failed to realise how absolutely stupid their customer was
but it's unclear to me that they were fully informed that the thief occurred from a member of the household who then continued to live there apparently unsupervised in any way

and it doesn't explain how the thief got hold of the PIN in the first place and why the OP didn't change the PIN

diamonddogsuk

My god you're quite a charmer aren't you.

Do you know what bugs me most about posters on message boards? People who wade in without bothering to read the whole thread and chucking their smart !!!!! remarks about without being in full possession of several facts which have been repeated ad nauseum throughout the thread.

CLAPTON wrote: »

possibly so; they may indeed have failed to realise how absolutely stupid their customer was
but it's unclear to me that they were fully informed that the thief occurred from a member of the household who then continued to live there apparently unsupervised in any way...

Let me help you out then, to save you the bother of actually reading:

diamonddogsuk wrote: »

...Point is, we tried to keep it in the family and he did it again so we said enough's enough, kicked him out and called the police in.

...and it doesn't explain how the thief got hold of the PIN in the first place and why the OP didn't change the PIN

Because we weren't even aware that the new card and PIN had already been sent out, since it's not unusual to wait up to ten days for replacement cards and PINs to be sent.

Oh yes, and the card, according to the T&C of every card issuer in the world, remains the property of the card issuer - something else you clearly haven't bothered to read.

In future, if you can't be bothered to read things in full before you start name-calling, keep your remarks to yourself.

Forum Etiquette
Pls be nice to all MoneySavers. There's no such thing as a stupid question, and even if you disagree courtesy helps.

CLAPTON

diamonddogsuk wrote: »

My god you're quite a charmer aren't you.

Do you know what bugs me most about posters on message boards? People who wade in without bothering to read the whole thread and chucking their smart !!!!! remarks about without being in full possession of several facts which have been repeated ad nauseum throughout the thread.



Because we weren't even aware that the new card and PIN had been sent out, since it's not unusual to wait up to ten days for replacement cards and PINs to be sent.

In future, if you can't be bothered to read things in full before you start name-calling, keep your remarks to yourself.

I have read everything in FULL
but you haven't answered my question at all

diamonddogsuk

CLAPTON wrote: »

I have read everything in FULL
but you haven't answered my question at all

I JUST DID!!!!! Look - right underneath your previous post - the bits you deleted in your quote!

What's your problem?????

In fact, don't bother answering that.. in fact don't bother answering at all. I've got better things to do than sit here brawling with a stranger on an internet forum.

I appreciate all the CONSTRUCTIVE help so far given.

CLAPTON

OK

how did the thief obtain the PIN in the first place

knowing you had a thief in your house what precautions did you put in place to protect yourself from him/she stealing new CC or the new PIN

did you ask MBNA NOt to send a new CC or a new PIN

chattychappy

My reading is that originally the PIN became known to the stepson, he used it fraudulently, MBNA were informed as to what happened, the card was cancelled and the OP took responsibility for the debt. So if the OP was grossly negligent in allowing the PIN to become known, it doesn't matter - the OP took on the debt anyway and told MBNA what happened. Against this level of disclosure I can't see that the OP was "grossly negligent" again for "allowing" MBNA to send a replacement card because when they sent it they sent it in a state whereby the stepson could intercept it and use it. If MBNA weren't aware of the full situation then it's more tricky for the OP. But as I keep on saying, it's gross negligence that is the test - not just a mistake, carelessness, or negligence.

Remember, the monies involved are MBNA's property. If they want the OP to make good their loss then the burden of proof for gross negligence is with MBNA. It's not for the OP and husband to have to show they did everything they could to have prevented it.

I agree we don't have all the detail of exactly what was said and the circumstances. If the OP wants to provide more information, then we can conduct a "mini trial" here... But MBNA haven't even asserted gross negligence yet - which they must do (or show fraud by the OP) given that it seems undisputed that the OP (or husband) didn't make the withdrawals themselves. Instead MBNA are trying to play this game according to their own rules - and this is what needs correcting. The rules are as in the Lending Code which is a reflection of the law and FSA regulation.

I'm not unsympathetic to MBNA. This is obviously an area open to massive abuse. So it doesn't surprise me that on the phone they might hold positions that don't stand up. That is why I became so active in this thread because the basics are very clear as to who has to establish what and I saw a risk that people were working from the wrong starting point. Also it's relevant to other MSE members to understand the process works.

To the OP: if you have household insurance, you might find it includes legal expenses insurance. You may wish to engage this if it comes to a struggle.

Littlesusie_2

CLAPTON wrote: »

OK

how did the thief obtain the PIN in the first place

knowing you had a thief in your house what precautions did you put in place to protect yourself from him/she stealing new CC or the new PIN

did you ask MBNA NOt to send a new CC or a new PIN

Having been caught once and probably promising never to do it again most parents would give the benefit of the doubt and move on - that's what families do. It's would I would do.
The second time he obviously got to the post 1st and hid both the pin and the card. Following this he was kicked out and the police called, again exactly what I would have done.
I expect the OP, in hindsight had wished that he had asked for MBNA to refrain from sending out a new card or asking for it to be signed for delivery, but hindsight doesn't change the situation.

@OP...When I previously mentioned that MBNA assume you had been negligent with your pin I wasn't being mean. I have taken a while to shred the PIN notice which would be seen as negligent if someone was to take it. I was just pointing out that this may be their point of view and something you would have to explain. I hope you get this mess sorted and that your Stepson will be able to redeem himself. Hopefully the police getting involved will scare him into not doing it again.