Is this really unreasonable?

Graham_Devon

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

No Graham, it's less people employed by Government.

Not less people employed....

The OBR are forecasting that unemployment will fall from current levels to around 6% over the course of this parliament.

By anyones definition, 6% unemployment is less than 8% unemployment, so more people are employed, no matter how desperately you try to spin it.

I assumed we all understood the context of what I meant by employed, considering I'd quoted you talking about public sector cuts. I wasn't trying to imply anything about marine engineering for example, just following the flow, as I would in real life...I don't in real life keep stating over and over the point I'm talking about if I'm talking about a particular topic

However, good to see you agreeing instead of trying to deny the undeniable.

As for the 6 vs 8% stuff....it hasn't happened yet, it's a forecast, many many forecasts have been wrong, infact, most have over the past 2-3 years. So I'm not going to jump the gun just yet and merely assume what one group has said will happen and therefore, that's the way it is.

Graham_Devon

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

No it isn't!!!!!!

It's fewer public sector jobs. NOT fewer jobs!!!!!

In this sense, whether they are public sector, or private sector. The pool (of jobs before you talk about paddling pool numbers not declining or something) is 500,000 less right now. Doesn't matter which sector the pool of jobs is in.

Generali

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

No it isn't!!!!!!

It's fewer public sector jobs. NOT fewer jobs!!!!!

Correct. A pound spent on employing someone in the public sector is a pound that isn't being spent in the private sector.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

tomterm8 wrote: »

The idea that everything will be just swell and the private sector will just produce new jobs suffers from the fact that unemployment is already 8%, and less jobs are being created than after most recessions.

Graham_Devon wrote: »

IAs for the 6 vs 8% stuff....it hasn't happened yet, it's a forecast,

It's not just a forecast, it's happening now.

In the last 3 months, 22,000 public sector jobs were lost, and 308,000 private sector jobs were created.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/lmsuk0910.pdf

N1AK

mostlycheerful wrote: »

And a lot of people have higher aspirations than doing unpleasant menial awful disgusting mindlessly boring and annoying jobs on minimum wage and being ordered about by bullying bosses. And rightly so. Who wants to be a slave and treated with contempt and abuse on a daily basis for peanuts and not even enough to live on let alone have and buy anything and have a bit of lifestyle? No one.

Claiming benefits is your definition of higher aspirations? Surviving on government handouts, rather than working, is you definition of avoiding slavery?

They might not want to do menial work, I don't however see that as sufficient reason for taking £1000s from other people so they don't have to. I don't like driving 2hrs a day to earn a living, sign me up for a government chauffeur.

It is not that I don't empathise with people stuck in rubbish jobs, in areas with no jobs etc. I do, and I'd love it if things magically fixed themselves and we could all work as CEOs, Premier League football players and pop stars; but this won't happen.

The question is whether it is reasonable for someone to expect other people to support them for the rest of their life, even though they are capable of supporting themselves, because they don't like the idea of commuting, or even worse moving? Personally I don't think it is.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Graham_Devon wrote: »

In this sense, whether they are public sector, or private sector. The pool (of jobs before you talk about paddling pool numbers not declining or something) is 500,000 less right now. Doesn't matter which sector the pool of jobs is in.

False.

The pool of jobs hasn't shrunk at all at the moment.

The number of public sector jobs will shrink, but the number of private sector jobs will rise more.

Therefore the pool will grow, not shrink.

tomterm8

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

It's not just a forecast, it's happening now.

In the last 3 months, 22,000 public sector jobs were lost, and 308,000 private sector jobs were created.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/lmsuk0910.pdf

Look at table 9 on that chart.

Remember that the results you are looking at are for quarters where the growth rate was substantially higher than normal.... because of a rebound. Whereas, even the OBR predict growth will slow to 2% next year... and, traditionally, that is near the rate where jobs are not created fast enough for unemployment to remain static.

kabayiri

Generali wrote: »

Correct. A pound spent on employing someone in the public sector is a pound that isn't being spent in the private sector.

I'd even suggest a pound spent on public sector jobs in one area may give better value than a pound spent in another.

Every area needs looking at again, and all job roles need to be challenged.

Someone in the public sector who is very effective at finding unemployed people jobs, persuading them back into the work arena, is a net gain in my book.

dopester

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

For most of the country, that's absolutely right.

Outside of major cities, buses are impractical and expensive. Not a viable option at all.

Form my last house, a 37 mile/40 minute trip door to door to work by car would have taken well over 2 hours and cost £18 by bus/train.

Maybe some people in the similar situation in a village could car-share or something. All chipping in for fuel to get to the city. Or maybe you were the only one in your village, so to speak.

mostlycheerful

N1AK : “Claiming benefits is your definition of higher aspirations?”

No, not my definition. Most people’s “higher aspirations” are simply money hence the “1.6 million hardened full time criminals” that the Home Office recently admitted are currently at large running amok doing heavy crime everywhere all the time with no intention by government to ever arrest or imprison any of them other than the occasional token few. Having money is what most people want. A lot of people want a new expensive car, natty clothes, three holidays a year to expensive destinations, plasma tellies and lots of new electrical gadgets and toys, spare cash to blow in restaurants etc.

Interestingly the Daily Hate regularly features people boasting that they are happy doing nothing except breeding and enjoying huge amounts of benefits which apparently are plenty enough to afford all the lifestyle they want. But for a lot of criminals – and non criminals - the dole is insufficient for their desires, they want a lot more than that.

“Surviving on government handouts, rather than working, is you definition of avoiding slavery?”

Yes, that’s right, a lot of people refuse to do slave work cos they’d prefer to be on benefits. And rightly so in the sense that slave work is awful and no one should be condemned to do it but, of course, wrongly so as sponging off taxpayers is immoral and is a form of robbery.

“They might not want to do menial work”

That’s right, hardly anyone does.

“I don't however see that as sufficient reason for taking £1000s from other people so they don't have to.”

Yes, I agree with you, it’s grossly immoral and extremely annoying that taxpayers fund useless sponging dole scroungers and criminals. But it is understandable that one of the reasons for this appalling state of affairs is a lot of people’s refusal to do poorly paid low grade slave work which is all they're fit for. And a lot of them aren't even fit for that.

“I don't like driving 2hrs a day to earn a living”

Ok, yes, a lot of people don’t. But, yes, that’s how you earn your living rather than doing something else or being a dole scrounger. So you are a good hard working moral taxpayer, the backbone of the country. And don’t ever stop otherwise if you and everyone rebelled against it and stopped then the whole country would grind to a halt and sink into the sea.

“sign me up for a government chauffeur.”

Er, sorry, don’t know what that means or what it might be a reference to so can’t comment on that.

“It is not that I don't empathise with people stuck in rubbish jobs, in areas with no jobs etc. I do, and I'd love it if things magically fixed themselves and we could all work as CEOs, Premier League football players and pop stars; but this won't happen.”

Yes, I agree, it won’t happen. So telling people to try to make it happen or even just to find an okish job when there aren’t even any bog cleaning jobs let alone okish jobs is incorrect and crass.

“The question is whether it is reasonable for someone to expect other people to support them for the rest of their life”

No it’s not, it’s disgusting. It’s grossly immoral. It’s extremely wrong. The welfare system was designed to help worthy people in need but has instead been hijacked by unworthy immoral criminals.

“even though they are capable of supporting themselves”

No, most of the dole scroungers are not capable. A lot of them are not even capable of holding down a bog cleaning job and certainly aren’t fit for anything better. If they were capable a lot of them would be doing so.

“because they don't like the idea of commuting, or even worse moving?”

No, the main point is that there are not any jobs to commute to or move to. That’s the main reason why the pronouncement is wrong. Then one of the further secondary reasons why the pronouncement is wrong is that it is unreasonable to expect anyone to want to be a bog cleaner on minimum wage. Just cos you’re thick and unskilled and disadvantaged and have got a rubbish personality and can’t read or write doesn’t mean that you’re willing to be a bog cleaner.

But I’m not suggesting that therefore it’s ok for rubbish people who refuse to be bog cleaners to go on the dole and sponge off taxpayers, on the contrary that is wholly unacceptable. So my over all point is that the whole system is a total mess from top to bottom in many ways and we have an acute lack of intelligence in the leadership, as is exhibited all the time, and as is demonstrably evident in this appallingly stupid pronouncement which is wrong in so many ways and on so many levels.

“Personally I don't think it is.”

But you’re ignoring the main point that there are no jobs to commute to or move to. There’s an acute lack of employment available in UK. I think the published government figure is that there are currently 300,000 vacancies in UK and 2.5 million people on the dole, ergo there are 2.2 million who cannot commute or move to get work, even if they wanted to. And, my secondary points are that a lot of those 2.2 million people are unfit for any kind of employment whatsoever, not even bog cleaning, plus it is unreasonable to expect any human being to be motivated to do bog cleaning at £5.83 an hour.

So to sum up, I agree with you that dole scrounging is outrageous and unnacceptable and I agree with the morality that people should work and pull their weight in society if they are fit to do so.

What I disagree with is a wholly illogical nonsensical pronouncement from an ignorant thickie who clearly hasn’t got a clue and can’t even add up ie he knows damn well that there are only 300,000 vacancies (or whatever the figure is, but that’s the one I saw the other day that stuck in my mind, unless perhaps I mis read it or mis remembered it) but 2.5 million on benefits so he’s just plain thick – and nasty and uncaring - to tell people to move to work when there isn’t any work to move to. No, this is truly appalling shabby ignorance and stupidity writ large. Totally failed government. As is so often the case.