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Holding back money for dodgy incomplete work. My rights?
Lit_Up
Posts: 236 Forumite
November 2009: So. To cut a long story short we paid some cowboys to take out a bath and stick in a shower. They charged something like £1700 pounds. They cocked up the job and made a shower base out of MDF which got sodden. Their tiles came off.
September 2010: We hired some new workmen GSR plumbing and heating LTD to redo the work. Here is their quote. Not really understanding DIY terminology we thought it was some major plumbing work needed. I now realise that it was not.
Ref: Bathroom works.
To carefully remove and set aside existing shower cubicle and tray.
To remove existing shower tray base and discard.
To build new shower tray base as necessary.
To re fit shower tray and cubicle, and make good wall tiling as necessary.
To supply and fit altro flooring to match existing over remaining section of base.
To remove existing extract fan.
To diamond core hole above shower into bedroom behind to facilitate installation of new fan, and run new 110mm ducting at high level through bedroom to outside airbrick, and box in as necessary.
To supply and fit new low voltage fan.
To make good wall where old fan was fitted.
To move existing wc suite slightly to the right for comfort, correctly fix pan to floor And supply and fit new flushpipe and cone.
To apply new white silicone seal around bathroom as necessary.
To investigate damp patch in bedroom and report findings.
To rub down and frll bathroom ceiling, and apply 2 coats of white specialist bathroom paint.
To clear all related rubbish from site.
Materials and Labour: £1750.00 plus vat. = £2056.25 inc vat
Basically in laymans terms, they lifted the shower off and found some sodden MDF which was used by the previous cowboys. Also a few inches of water underneath. They reconstructed the base and then retiled where the tiles were faulty. They then reinstalled the shower (note - no new shower) and then drilled a hole through the wall to install a new fan. Then stuck boxing in the room on the other side.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v4...aron/bathroom/
I was since told by somebody on these boards that £2056.25 inc vat is far too much to be paying for this.
UPDATE: OK guys I'm having more trouble with these guys and need more help from you please! They've only just given me an itemised invoice:
LV fan 170
timber 225
new shower waste fitting 20
floor tiles 30
adhesive/grout for wall and floor tiles 20
110mm pipe for fan ducting 30
painter, labour and materials 250
diamond drill through wall for fan (wear of bit) 20
silicone 20
rubbish to dump 120
electrical materials 10
access panel for fan transformer 15
hit and miss vent 5
flushpipe and cone for wc 10
Total: £845
Labour: £905
Sub total for job: £1750
Vat @ 17.5% £306.25
Total: £2056.25
Why is he charging for 'wear of bit' to his drill? Surely that's covered by his own insurance? Why should I be paying for his own damage to his own drill?
But more importantly there are now problems with their work. He was meant to install a fan that would adequately extract moisture from a little windowless shower/WC room that measures 4ft10 x 7ft9, with ceiling height of 8ft7 so that mould or water damage no longer occurs to the ceiling. Unfortunately there is now water damage to the ceiling which will only get worse with time.
He asked that we pay 50% of the total and then he would fix it. I've given him a few dates and now he's saying that his position is untenable and that he requires full payment otherwise he will get legal advice.
We have already paid £1000 for this job and yet still the ceiling is damaged. According to the govt run consumer direct website:
Payment
Try to avoid paying deposits, particularly large deposits, and don’t ever pay the whole amount up front. There is a risk that the trader could disappear with your money and you will have less leverage over completion, quality etc.
In all cases, you should try and keep back enough money to keep pressure on the trader to get on with the job and to finish it properly.
But be fair about completion: pay promptly if everything contracted for has been completed satisfactorily.
Seeing as he hasn't completed the work properly (extraction fan is not removing moisture from the room adequately and is not appropriate for room size according to fan manufacturer) am I in my rights to not pay the rest of the balance? We have given him opportunity to come back and fix it, which he has not taken up...
What's the law on this, does anybody know?
September 2010: We hired some new workmen GSR plumbing and heating LTD to redo the work. Here is their quote. Not really understanding DIY terminology we thought it was some major plumbing work needed. I now realise that it was not.
Ref: Bathroom works.
To carefully remove and set aside existing shower cubicle and tray.
To remove existing shower tray base and discard.
To build new shower tray base as necessary.
To re fit shower tray and cubicle, and make good wall tiling as necessary.
To supply and fit altro flooring to match existing over remaining section of base.
To remove existing extract fan.
To diamond core hole above shower into bedroom behind to facilitate installation of new fan, and run new 110mm ducting at high level through bedroom to outside airbrick, and box in as necessary.
To supply and fit new low voltage fan.
To make good wall where old fan was fitted.
To move existing wc suite slightly to the right for comfort, correctly fix pan to floor And supply and fit new flushpipe and cone.
To apply new white silicone seal around bathroom as necessary.
To investigate damp patch in bedroom and report findings.
To rub down and frll bathroom ceiling, and apply 2 coats of white specialist bathroom paint.
To clear all related rubbish from site.
Materials and Labour: £1750.00 plus vat. = £2056.25 inc vat
Basically in laymans terms, they lifted the shower off and found some sodden MDF which was used by the previous cowboys. Also a few inches of water underneath. They reconstructed the base and then retiled where the tiles were faulty. They then reinstalled the shower (note - no new shower) and then drilled a hole through the wall to install a new fan. Then stuck boxing in the room on the other side.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v4...aron/bathroom/
I was since told by somebody on these boards that £2056.25 inc vat is far too much to be paying for this.
UPDATE: OK guys I'm having more trouble with these guys and need more help from you please! They've only just given me an itemised invoice:
LV fan 170
timber 225
new shower waste fitting 20
floor tiles 30
adhesive/grout for wall and floor tiles 20
110mm pipe for fan ducting 30
painter, labour and materials 250
diamond drill through wall for fan (wear of bit) 20
silicone 20
rubbish to dump 120
electrical materials 10
access panel for fan transformer 15
hit and miss vent 5
flushpipe and cone for wc 10
Total: £845
Labour: £905
Sub total for job: £1750
Vat @ 17.5% £306.25
Total: £2056.25
Why is he charging for 'wear of bit' to his drill? Surely that's covered by his own insurance? Why should I be paying for his own damage to his own drill?
But more importantly there are now problems with their work. He was meant to install a fan that would adequately extract moisture from a little windowless shower/WC room that measures 4ft10 x 7ft9, with ceiling height of 8ft7 so that mould or water damage no longer occurs to the ceiling. Unfortunately there is now water damage to the ceiling which will only get worse with time.
He asked that we pay 50% of the total and then he would fix it. I've given him a few dates and now he's saying that his position is untenable and that he requires full payment otherwise he will get legal advice.
We have already paid £1000 for this job and yet still the ceiling is damaged. According to the govt run consumer direct website:
Payment
Try to avoid paying deposits, particularly large deposits, and don’t ever pay the whole amount up front. There is a risk that the trader could disappear with your money and you will have less leverage over completion, quality etc.
In all cases, you should try and keep back enough money to keep pressure on the trader to get on with the job and to finish it properly.
But be fair about completion: pay promptly if everything contracted for has been completed satisfactorily.
Seeing as he hasn't completed the work properly (extraction fan is not removing moisture from the room adequately and is not appropriate for room size according to fan manufacturer) am I in my rights to not pay the rest of the balance? We have given him opportunity to come back and fix it, which he has not taken up...
What's the law on this, does anybody know?
0
Comments
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Why is he charging for 'wear of bit' to his drill? Surely that's covered by his own insurance? Why should I be paying for his own damage to his own drill?
It is not damage he is charging for it is wear & tear.
It happens when you drill out a core.
He is taking the !!!! on that one.Not Again0 -
Seeing as he hasn't completed the work properly (extraction fan is not removing moisture from the room adequately and is not appropriate for room size according to fan manufacturer) am I in my rights to not pay the rest of the balance? We have given him opportunity to come back and fix it, which he has not taken up...
What's the law on this, does anybody know?
The extraction of the fan should comply with building regs.Not Again0 -
Yep - thats a crap job (from your album) allright. Did you pursue them?November 2009: So. To cut a long story short we paid some cowboys to take out a bath and stick in a shower. They charged something like £1700 pounds. They cocked up the job and made a shower base out of MDF which got sodden. Their tiles came off.
From a contract perspective they gave you a quote which you accepted and therefore, provided the work done is to your satisfaction (yes we'll deal with that in a moment) the whole amount is due.September 2010: We hired some new workmen GSR plumbing and heating LTD to redo the work. Here is their quote.
I think I would agree but they quoted and you accepted.I was since told by somebody on these boards that £2056.25 inc vat is far too much to be paying for this.
They didn't really have to do that and I have to say I'd take some issue with some of the prices considering the job but, again, they gave you a quotation which was acceptedThey've only just given me an itemised invoice:
Thats not damage to his drill and its not an insurance issue. Its normal wear and tear and if you hire a 110mm core drill from a hire shop they will measure the bit beon hire and off hire and charge by the mm for wear. Whether he should have charged you for this is moot.Why is he charging for 'wear of bit' to his drill? Surely that's covered by his own insurance? Why should I be paying for his own damage to his own drill?
What fan did he supply? Does it have a humidistat and does it have a run on timer? Do you use the run on facility? The damage you are seeing to your ceiling is either inadequate preparation by the painter or the wrong paint was used or the fan is inadequate or you aren't using the run on. What "specialist" bathroom paint did they use?But more importantly there are now problems with their work. He was meant to install a fan that would adequately extract moisture from a little windowless shower/WC room that measures 4ft10 x 7ft9, with ceiling height of 8ft7 so that mould or water damage no longer occurs to the ceiling. Unfortunately there is now water damage to the ceiling which will only get worse with time.
The ductwork is carp BTW - that flexi is a lovely water trap.
That does not seem unreasonable.He asked that we pay 50% of the total and then he would fix it.
Theres more thats happened between "pay 50% and I'll fix it" and "full payment or legal advice" than a few dates being given. Can't comment without the full story.I've given him a few dates and now he's saying that his position is untenable and that he requires full payment otherwise he will get legal advice.
So you have paid 50% or not?We have already paid £1000 for this job
If he's got his 50% why hasn't he fixed it?and yet still the ceiling is damaged.
a 50% payment would seem to meet these goals and give him the incentive to finish it properly. So have you paid it or not? From a legal perspective you should pay for everything you ARE happy with - only witholding payment for that which you are not.According to the govt run consumer direct website:
CheersThe difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's limits. - Einstein0 -
Can't help thinking you are barking up the wrong tree. The decorators on here may agree with what I am suggesting, but the blistering of the emulsion on the ceiling is consisent with the plaster not having been sealed properly, prior to painting. ie, they haven't given the new plaster a mist coat prior to applying full coats. The inadequate fan hasn't caused the ceiling to bubble. Poor workmanship from your decorators has.Eat vegetables and fear no creditors, rather than eat duck and hide.0
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I would go further and say that emulsion is not the right paint for the environment. Eggshell is more the thing.Can't help thinking you are barking up the wrong tree. The decorators on here may agree with what I am suggesting, but the blistering of the emulsion on the ceiling is consisent with the plaster not having been sealed properly, prior to painting. ie, they haven't given the new plaster a mist coat prior to applying full coats. The inadequate fan hasn't caused the ceiling to bubble. Poor workmanship from your decorators has.Hi, we’ve had to remove your signature. If you’re not sure why please read the forum rules or email the forum team if you’re still unsure - MSE ForumTeam0 -
I agree that the faults with your ceiling look more like a decorating problem rather than an extraction problem. Having said that, i am yet to find a bathroom extract fan that does the job properly (without going into 9" ventaxias etc).
Out of interest, i am assuming that your builder provided you with cerification for the electrical work carried out? Did he do it himself or did he get a qualified electrician in? If he did it, ask to see his Part P credentials and have him provide you a certificate from his governing body ie NicEic, Napit, Elecsa etc. Could be interesting.
HTH
Andy0 -
Yep - thats a crap job (from your album) allright. Did you pursue them?
My mother hired them but didn't pursued them. Found them in the local rag... don't think she could be arsed to pursue them.From a contract perspective they gave you a quote which you accepted and therefore, provided the work done is to your satisfaction (yes we'll deal with that in a moment) the whole amount is due.I think I would agree but they quoted and you accepted.
Mum accepted it but yes, I understand.Thats not damage to his drill and its not an insurance issue. Its normal wear and tear and if you hire a 110mm core drill from a hire shop they will measure the bit beon hire and off hire and charge by the mm for wear. Whether he should have charged you for this is moot.
So what can I do? Seems unfair and I don't want to pay that.What fan did he supply? Does it have a humidistat and does it have a run on timer? Do you use the run on facility? The damage you are seeing to your ceiling is either inadequate preparation by the painter or the wrong paint was used or the fan is inadequate or you aren't using the run on. What "specialist" bathroom paint did they use?
He supplied an Alto fan which is a Ventaxia fan. Four inches, with run on timer. Don't know if it has a humidistat, I don't think so. I phoned up Ventaxia and described the dimensions of the room and the type of fan installed and they said it was inadequate.
Do you mean crap? What would be better? Can I make him do something better at no extra charge?The ductwork is carp BTW - that flexi is a lovely water trap.That does not seem unreasonable.Theres more thats happened between "pay 50% and I'll fix it" and "full payment or legal advice" than a few dates being given. Can't comment without the full story.
Basically he wrote us an email asking us to pay the 50% and he would fix it up, we paid 50%, he then asked for dates, I hadn't responded within 7 days (I had stuff to do - I work full time it's not like I have all the time in the world). He sent a short email threatening us with legal action, I sent him a longer one explaining why I hadn't responded immediately and giving him dates. He then said his position was untenable and asked me to pay the full amount in 7 days.
Yes - £1000So you have paid 50% or not?If he's got his 50% why hasn't he fixed it?
I don't know. He moans that he feels his professionalism is being questioned. I'm sorry, but somebody is only as good as their job.0
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