Council House Tenancy Query

Snorkerz

squinty wrote: »

To be fair that is different from your original post.

More detail, granted, but the story hasn't changed.

Why did they lose thier last home?

No reason officially - it was an s21. However, as I said above, the true reason was because the landlord was not happy with the speed that she was repaying the debt from the initial tenancy.

theartfullodger

Check wording of tenancy - it could be a temporary tenancy granted whilst council investigate housing duty, in which case tenants have very few rights & if council decision is the owe no duty to house, T can be chucked out v v quickly

See... (e.g. ...)

http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/renting_and_leasehold/council_tenancies/temporary_housing_from_the_council


If this is the sort of temporary tenancy they have been offered (e.g. whilst Council investigating homelessness application) they would be advised to say "yes" sharpish as these go V quick, but to recognise they might be out sooner than they &/or you Snorkerz expect ..

Can the council evict me?

Yes. People living in temporary accommodation can be evicted much more easily than other council tenants. The most common reasons for eviction include:

• refusing an offer of suitable settled accommodation
• causing nuisance to neighbours
• not paying the rent, or paying it late on a regular basis.

The council doesn't have to prove a legal reason for the eviction but they have to follow the correct procedure. The rules are different depending on whether you are an occupier with basic protection or an excluded occupier:

If this is the case I suspect the options to negotiate who is on or off the tenancy agreement are slight...

And people think Council tenancies are so much more secure eh???

poppysarah

If she is sole tenant and he still lives there and she doesn't declare him being there then she's in trouble.
If she is sole tenant and he lives there and she declares him then how will that affect her benefits?

If she is in a relationship that continues to damage the safety, stability and happiness of her family then she needs to address this first.

Jowo_2

The OP will need to clarify the actual tenancy their friend has been offered. I interpreted it as being an introductory tenancy

"An introductory tenancy is a one-year trial council tenancy. It gives you most of the same rights as a secure council tenancy but you can be evicted much more easily. As long as you don't break your tenancy agreement while you are an introductory tenant, you will automatically become a secure tenant."

http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/renting_and_leasehold/council_tenancies/introductory_council_tenancies

But I simply don't understand why she thinks a sole tenancy will protect the household from a future eviction for arrears when she's already lost accommodation she held in her sole or her joint name anyhow, plus how she expects to lose the 'intentionally homeless' tag by taking him off the joint tenancy when she was either fully liable (as a sole tenant) or jointly and severally liable (as a joint tenant) in the last property.

Tell your friend to seek advice from Shelter. Intentional homelessness does include a tenant not paying rent when they could have so if her partner contributed to this, if for example, she wasn't aware that he was not paying or she is victim of domestic abuse (the financial violence he wreaked on the household by squandering their housing benefit on things other than the rent) then she should seek advice as to whether this definition actually applies.

Also, any tenant in a joint tenancy can end the tenancy (without the consent of the other tenants) and is free to negotiate a new tenancy agreement with the landlord. Are you saying the landlord forced her to end the first one and take over a new one?!

I think when a council receives a homelessness application they will contact the previous landlord to verify the circumstances so I can't understand why it is considered that as he evicted them under a Section 21 rather than a Section 8, the rent arrears should be ignored? Or are local councils obliged to only act like there were arrears with an S8, I don't know?

theartfullodger

Jowo wrote: »

I think when a council receives a homelessness application they will contact the previous landlord to verify the circumstances so I can't understand why it is considered that as he evicted them under a Section 21 rather than a Section 8, the rent arrears should be ignored? Or are local councils obliged to only act like there were arrears with an S8, I don't know?

Depends... e.g. if a tenant left previous property having had S21 (or indeed just left..) when in fear of their life from violence (partner, neighbours, others,,..) then Council would normally (having checked with Police etc... ) accept a duty to house whilst undertaking further checking... [it's what we'd all want I think if say a vulnerable female relative were in such circumstances that council would house them...).

However in such circs they may grant a temporary non-secure tenancy... and can then (e.g.) either evict ... or convert tenancy later to a more "secure" variety.. (until that nice Mr Cameron tells them to restrict security of tenure like he promised he would....)

Cheers!

Artful

Snorkerz

Jowo wrote: »

The OP will need to clarify the actual tenancy their friend has been offered. I interpreted it as being an introductory tenancy

I agree, I have asked her to clarify with the council.

But I simply don't understand why she thinks a sole tenancy will protect the household from a future eviction for arrears when she's already lost accommodation she held in her sole or her joint name anyhow, plus how she expects to lose the 'intentionally homeless' tag by taking him off the joint tenancy when she was either fully liable (as a sole tenant) or jointly and severally liable (as a joint tenant) in the last property.

2 tenancies on same property. Original - He & She - ended (see below). Then a brand new tenancy (not just a new tenancy agreement - it was a different 'tenant' - ie just She). She was evicted from the second tenancy under s21 with NO RENT ARREARS. There was a civil debt due to non payment on the earlier joint tenancy, but the tenancy from which she was evicted was absolutely hunky-dory.

Also, any tenant in a joint tenancy can end the tenancy (without the consent of the other tenants) and is free to negotiate a new tenancy agreement with the landlord. Are you saying the landlord forced her to end the first one and take over a new one?!

Yes - mid way through a 6 month fixed term they were told if He doesn't go, you're out - here's a new agreement for Her to sign. As there were kids involved, they didn't want the kids to be homeless (and they didn't know their rights) so she signed and he went to live with mum for a while. This all happened in the space of one evening.

With regard to 'intentionally homeless', I believe it can be proved (by her actions in the 2nd tenancy) that 'She' was not the cause of the arrears in the earlier tenancy - that it was 'He' (it was!). For a joint application then one of them caused it, so they would be IH. For just a sole application, the council would have to prove she was involved - and she wasn't. (I might not be explaining this well - but I have taken advice from a Housing Department supervisor)

Jowo_2

Snorkerz wrote: »

... She was evicted from the second tenancy under s21 with NO RENT ARREARS. There was a civil debt due to non payment on the earlier joint tenancy, ...

With regard to 'intentionally homeless', I believe it can be proved (by her actions in the 2nd tenancy) that 'She' was not the cause of the arrears in the earlier tenancy - that it was 'He' (it was!). ..

At a personal level I have no doubt that it's the male partner that caused the rent arrears but at the contractual level, during a joint tenancy, she is jointly and severally liable.

A landlord doesn't have to take sides against individual tenants during a joint tenancy, he can pursue either or both tenants. She cannot assume that just because the earlier arrears were caused by his behaviour, that she cannot be held responsible, that's not the way joint tenancies operate.

I suppose it depends whether the council will make their decision based on the recent sole tenancy where there were no arrears or go further back to when it was a jointly held one, where she can also be held to account for arrears and where adding him to the council tenancy can negatively impact how they assess the homelessness application.

Perhaps Shelter can advise?