It is like a war

consultant31

cattie1 wrote:

my 2p's worth-on how stupid tax credits are-my partner and I are better off NOT working because of all the benefits we would get, HOWEVER I have chosen to go in2 full time work while my OH stays at home and cares for children,-IF he did decide to go in2 work we would be much worse off as then we would have to pay for childcare etc, the entire system is backwards and does nothing to encourage people to go out and get a job.

Sorry to butt in, but this is fascinating and I had to put in my oar,

This is definitely something which is wrong with this country - we are given no incentive to get off our backsides and work - but it has been this way for many years.
Around 45 years ago my Dad was a long-distance lorry driver, who used to come home twice a week (Wednesdays and Sundays) for a matter of a few hours before he was off again. Across the road from us was a family with 3 children. Neither parent worked and I can remember my Dad coming in seething because the chap across had laughed when Dad told him how much he earned. He said he got more than that and slept in his own bed every night (and half the day). The thing that made the difference was personal pride, which Dad had in bucket-loads and the other chap didn't know the meaning of.
=====================

(QUOTE)Why do you feel abnormal if you don't go on holiday every year, have a widescreen tv, flat screen monitor for your computer, flashy looking car, decking for your garden, etc. People are made to feel like a failure if they don't have these things, and so they go into debt to get them. The pressure from society and the easy availability of credit makes temptation to buy what you can't afford almost overwhelming.(QUOTE)

This is so true.
My son is proud of the fact he doesn't need a car to get about (he walks the mile or so to work and uses the train for longer journeys) and yet he has colleagues who look down their nose when he turns up on foot. It takes great strength of character not to buckle under to what is regarded as the "norm".
I have always been terrified of debt - a trait instilled by my Mum, and I've passed it on to my kids - none of them buy what they can't afford, but they're under constant pressure from credit card companies sending stuff through the post almost daily.
Even my optician told me I was very unusual not having several pairs of specs in different colours/designs. When I pointed out that at over £100 a pair I couldn't afford it, he said, "live on plastic, I do" - what a motto to live by!

Mrs_Sparkle

I agree totally consultant31. I have some family members to whom I no longer speak since they boasted to me about the benefits they receive and the loopholes that they advantage of. They were too stupid to work out that as a taxpayer I am directly subsidising their lifestyle which is more lavish than mine. I sympathise with your dad, but at least like you say we have our pride.

I'm proud to say that my days of living off the plastic are finally over but it saddens me to see the way the next generation are seeing luxury items such as designer clothes, plasma TVs, new cars etc as a necessity rather than a nice-to-have-if-you-can-afford-it. God knows how I got into such a mess- I don't own a car, don't watch TV, don't own any designer clothes... mine seems to be a hangover from when Thatcher stuffed up things for students and left us all with debts!

buxtonrabbitgreen

yes interesting thread . When we bought our first house in the 70s we could live on one income and have children. As someone else said, I couldnt afford to buy my house now either. But, in the 70s the only credit available was the old hire purchase and to get somthing on that one had to fill in forms in person, the company checked with your employers to see if you could afford it first. Credit is too easy to obtain now. Though I have to say back then everything we owned was second hand and I still have quite a lot of furniture etc 30 or more years old. I seem to remember from sociology that poverty was measured by the perception of what it is normal to expect to own, and in the 70s it was normal to not have a phone, a car, a freezer, a microwave etc. My OH has lost work because of this throw away mentallity, he is a tv repairman only no one gets them repaired anymore. I think I still have a bit of a 70s mentallity myself. ie when the iron breaks oh takes it apart to repair, most would just go out and buy a new one.

System

I remember the days when my husband was able to earn a good living out of his trade. He worked hard and did long hours and it was worth him working out of town for. These days the benefits arent there and to make it worse he has to work with people from other countries who dont speak a word of English, who do their job for peanuts (but thats another rant). The only people who profit these days are the large companies who are screwing the little man into the ground.

Jobs were easy to come by, but not so easy to find these days.

Zammo

Judi wrote:

These days the benefits arent there and to make it worse he has to work with people from other countries who dont speak a word of English, who do their job for peanuts (but thats another rant).

Completely agree. Another thing that's keeping labours 'miracle' economy afloat is the Eastern Europeans flooding into the job market. They are undercutting british wages and causing wage deflation. This may be good for business but for anyone trying to raise a family on a wage it's not fair to have to compete against immigrant workers with no dependants and limited outgoings - ie sleeping 3 to a room in the cheapest areas.

Pobby

What is so scary is that youngsters are taking on debt.A nephew,aged 18,has just borrowed £15,000 to buy a car with.I tried to talk him out of it but``it`s better than any car my mates own``!My niece has taken a loan for £5,500 for a car.When i explained why she would be paying £4,000 in interest,no one had imformed her of aprs!

If money management is not taught in schools I dread to think how much trouble kids will get themselves into.

It is so sad to listen to their conversations which seem to be centred around money.When I had a fall on holiday in our villa my 14 year old nephew said sue them,you`ll get 7,000 compensation.That spoke volumes to me!

Pooky

buxtonrabbitgreen wrote:

My OH has lost work because of this throw away mentallity, he is a tv repairman only no one gets them repaired anymore. I think I still have a bit of a 70s mentallity myself. ie when the iron breaks oh takes it apart to repair, most would just go out and buy a new one.

Unfortunately it's a vicious circle - finding someone to repair something nowadays costs more than buying a new one...and finding someone you can trust is even worse. I'm a great beliver in making do and mending but until socity catches up with me then I'll always feel a little "strange".

As for the housing market - we're stuck paying £600 per month rent as we can't afford to save up for the huge deposit we'd need to be able to buy a flat, ironically we're not earning enough for a mortgage with repayments of £600 a month but we're not entitled to housing benefit as we earn enough to pay a £600 a month rent.....it's all gone a bit wrong somewhere and I seriously worry about those people who have mortgaged themselves to the hilt, it simply cannot carry on like this.

nrsql

I too am concerned about the country. Might be cynical but an uneducated population is much easier to control.
If people aren't taught to think for themselves it makes them much more suseptible to propaganda.
I'm astonished at how many people believe that children are getting brighter and teachers better due to the number and grades of exams passed.
What is the point of a University education and vast debt if 50% of your age group has the same - much better to get a job and do a degree (or not) part time paid for by your company.

I remember a number of SF books about societies where most people were out of work and spent all their time watching and discussing a game show(s). Have a feeling we might be heading that way - makes for cheap TV.

How come the government gets away with increasing taxes (of course not income tax) and pretends they aren't.
Manages to declare long term expenditure then declare the same expenditure every year as though it is something extra.
Manages to raid (and kill) pension funds and then put in legislation to prevent them recovering and say they are safeguarding our retirement.
Manages to vastly increase the costs of running small businesses and pretend it's good for them.
Manages to allow VAT fraud on a vast scale (ok not the governments fault it happens but they were very slow to act).
Allow private clamping firms to victimise the public.
........

I could keep going on.
I thought the latter days of the Thatcher government was out of control but was nothing compared to what this lot thinks they can get away with (and does it seems).
Think Gordons messed up a bit - he was planning to be PM before his short term economic measures started showing holes and leave the next chancellor to plug them - now looks like he's got to carry on covering it up until near the next election.

I used to think a hike in interest rates would be good to stop people getting cheap loans and further into debt - now I think it's too late and increased rates will cause too many people too much hardship. Don't really see how we can avoid a recession now.

Kevicho

Pobby wrote:

What is so scary is that youngsters are taking on debt.A nephew,aged 18,has just borrowed £15,000 to buy a car with.I tried to talk him out of it but``it`s better than any car my mates own``!My niece has taken a loan for £5,500 for a car.When i explained why she would be paying £4,000 in interest,no one had imformed her of aprs!

Do they really "own" it, or are they also on scandalous car loans?

Yes i agree, this should be taught in schools, but unfortunately it isnt.

That means it is up to parents to teach these things, but alas, most parents lack these skills as well.

To be honest though ive given up caring, just means more opportunities for me when im not paying out 90% of my wages to debt maintainence and i can escape the rat race.

Cheers

gallygirl

How I agree with all that has been said!!!!

Going back to the Thatcher years, I think it all started with the erosion of society values and the 'loads of money' attitude from the City workers. 'I want it now' is fine if you can afford it now, but that attitude permeated throughout society - so the poorest want it and either, if we're lucky, get it on credit or steal it / destroy what others have (my brand new car was 'keyed' after a month, a previous car stolen and dumped after 2 miles - presumably they didn't want to walk home from the pub.

I work with people I could cheerfully shake till they saw some sense - was called tight by someone because I bring my lunch in most days, the following day he confessed he is going bankrupt (& was gutted when I said he would ahve to sell his luxury car!!!!!).

So, they all go to the pub every day then buy sandwiches, while I sit at my desk with my lunch. I have a weekly excursion to pub or sandwich shop - which is a treat, and feels like it!

They all have 28" minimum digital surround sound TV's, DVD players etc. I have the 24" set which is at least 12 years old and will not be replaced till it breaks or I'm forced to by digital taking over.

They wouldn't DREAM of flying on a weekend break with Easyjet or Ryanair, only BA is good enough. I scour Martin's flightchecker looking for 1p flights.

And the conclusion? OH & I have 4 BTL's, small mortgage on own house, buying place in Spain. No other debt. They have massive mortgages which they constantly extend (or rent), 000's on ccards.

And the conclusion? When we are old & sick we will have to sell up to pay to be looked after, the state will look after them . Go figure.......

Oooohhh, didn't realise I felt so strongly, rant over.