It is like a war

Pobby

So is this a fundemental change in society?Clearly the old rules of work hard and enjoy the fruits of your labour really do not seem to apply any longer.I know many that are on benefits that seem to enjoy a good life.Get rid of your housing,council tax costs and it becomes a different world.

As a self employed person of many years I feel vunerable.Bit late with your tax returns,maybe you have sluggish cash flow,fines and interest are added.The VAT gestapo decide to do a check,and of course remember that they only exist because of wealth producers,and the average Joe Soap will end up being grilled .

Social engeneering is afoot,however it is beyond my understanding!

ZTD

Pobby wrote:

So is this a fundemental change in society?Clearly the old rules of work hard and enjoy the fruits of your labour really do not seem to apply any longer.I know many that are on benefits that seem to enjoy a good life.Get rid of your housing,council tax costs and it becomes a different world.

We as humans have been here before - look up "panem et circenses". It is the end game of democracy. It always ends up this way, that's why democracy doesn't last.

The UK and the US didn't used to be democracies. Yes, people could vote, but the government has very restricted powers, hence the US was a republic, and the UK was a constitutional monarchy.

Now both governments are basically limitless in their power. You want public executions in tube trains? You want torture camps? You got it!

Think about it: The money you earn would support about six unemployed people. So that's six votes to your one. So they vote that you give them all your money, and all is right in the world - democracy in action, and fair and equitable redistribution in action.

Of course this just means you stop working and vote for someone to support you as well. So someone else is used as the cash cow. Eventually there are no cash cows left, and the country hits crises. A starving in the streets kind of crisis. Then a "strong man" steps into the breach, to deliver us from evil, and the circle is complete.

Pobby wrote:

Social engeneering is afoot,however it is beyond my understanding!

Look into the past - it's all happened before.

Luckystepho

My dad retired to Spain last year, and the income he receives from both his state pension and works pension enable him to have a much higher standard of living than he would have in the UK- in fact he said he almost couldn't afford to live in the UK although he has worked all his adult life!
I must say, the oil/ fuel situation does get me concerned; I may be naive, but there must be a limited supply, and when it's gone it's gone.... so there must be a point when we will have used it all, and what then?

ZTD

Luckystepho wrote:

I must say, the oil/ fuel situation does get me concerned; I may be naive, but there must be a limited supply, and when it's gone it's gone.... so there must be a point when we will have used it all, and what then?

That's not the problem. That may be a hundred years into the future. The problem is when half the oil is used up. From then on, production steadily declines, and nothing can make it increase.

The price then goes up and up - there will still be peaks and troughs, but that's the long-term effect. There is oil, just too expensive to use.

This peak in production is called "hubbert's peak" - google for it. I can't really do it justice...

You can only tell where this peak in production is, when it has been passed for a few years. By my looking a squiggly graphs and stuff (:D), I reckon it has passed in the past few months, but it will probably take the rest of this decade to be sure.

Hereward

ZTD wrote:

That's not the problem. That may be a hundred years into the future. The problem is when half the oil is used up. From then on, production steadily declines, and nothing can make it increase...

That's not strictly true, it would be very easy to increase the amount of oil extracted from its various sources: it will just mean that the point in time when oil runs out will brought closer to the present day than it already is. We really should worry too much at the moment as industry are already planning for this eventually and are research alternative fuel technology. We should worry if these technologies do not work, or are not good enough.

In theory there is more than enough radioactive particles to keep us in fission (current nuclear power stations) and fusion (how the sun works) for many years into the future. This would solve our problems if we could just get over our fear of nuclear energy.

ZTD

Hereward wrote:

That's not strictly true, it would be very easy to increase the amount of oil extracted from its various sources:

No. It wouldn't. Read about Hubbert's peak. You can temporarily increase production by injecting things into oil fields, but that comes at the expense of reducing the amount of retrievable oil. But this is *already* being done.

Ghawar is in decline with a water cut reputed to be at 40%. Does that not make you nervous?

Hereward wrote:

In theory there is more than enough radioactive particles to keep us in fission (current nuclear power stations) and fusion (how the sun works) for many years into the future. This would solve our problems if we could just get over our fear of nuclear energy.

There are no working fusion power generators in existance on this planet.

Hereward

ZTD wrote:

No. It wouldn't. Read about Hubbert's peak. You can temporarily increase production by injecting things into oil fields, but that comes at the expense of reducing the amount of retrievable oil. But this is *already* being done.

Ghawar is in decline with a water cut reputed to be at 40%. Does that not make you nervous?

The current trend for pumping stuff into oil fields, it conveniently ignores other sources of oil, means that they are using things that dilute the amount of usable oil. If carbon capture can be proved to work, then it would be possible to pump the carbon dioxide into the fields to help oil extraction. This has two benefits: it removes CO2 from the atmosphere, which helps alleviate global warming; it does not dilute the extracted oil.

There are no working fusion power generators in existance on this planet.

This is currently true; however, France and Japan are currently building prototypes.

ZTD

Hereward wrote:

The current trend for pumping stuff into oil fields, it conveniently ignores other sources of oil, means that they are using things that dilute the amount of usable oil. If carbon capture can be proved to work, then it would be possible to pump the carbon dioxide into the fields to help oil extraction. This has two benefits: it removes CO2 from the atmosphere, which helps alleviate global warming; it does not dilute the extracted oil.

I'm afraid I didn't understand what you said. You pump stuff into oil fields to increase the pressure. This brings the oil out. You do not suck oil out of the ground. Whatever you pump in, mixes with the oil and comes out with the oil, and hence needs to be seperated from the oil. The higher pressures damage the oilfield and also lead to areas of stranded oil.

Hereward wrote:

This is currently true; however, France and Japan are currently building prototypes.

Productive nuclear fusion has been due in the next 10 years for the past 40.

immoral_angeluk

Couldn't agree more. The trouble is now that debt is far to easy to obtain and it's too easy to let it get out of control. All people see if the 'available balance' on their credit cards and what they can buy with it, seeing it as free money when in fact the opposite is true.
We rent from a housing association so are lucky to have the 'security' that brings and we pay £287 per month for a 2 bed mid terrace. There's no way we could afford (Or obtain) a mortgage as our wages are pitiful and we only just about manage. I can't wait for the day when we can turn around and say that we are debt free!!!!

rog2

Whilst I have been 'peeping' at this thread over the last week, I waited until today(Sunday) to have a proper read, as I did not want to give a 'hasty' or misinformed opinion of it - this does not, of course, imply that I think that it is, in any way, a less than excellent thread. In fact the diversity of information and opinion that this thread has generated is seriously making me re-evaluate my own situation.
I can, being of a similar age to Pobby, equate totally to much of what has been said, and debated, here:
I was brought up, in the 50's and 60's, as one of 6 children, where my father was the major breadwinner - my mother would do the occasional cleaning job, at one of the 'big houses' and we were often brought along, but made to sit quietly in the kitchen, whilst she did her work, as the word 'baby-sitter' did not come into the equation. Certainly it was not until I was in my teens, that my mother was able to go back into regular paid employment.
My father had a 'good job' - he was the manager of a large furniture shop, and I remember his elation when a pay-rise, in 1960, actually brought his wage above £20.00 a week. We were, indeed, more fortunate than many - we had a television in the 1950's and I remember neighbours bringing their own chairs to come and watch important programmes (even though my father spent most of his time up in the loft, adjusting the ariel).
We lived, for most of that time, in a 3 bed council house, with a huge garden - all cultivated to put vegetables on the table. In addition, my father had a council allotment, where he would spend most Sundays. There were no supermarkets, although there was a 'big' self-service co-op at the end of the road, where we would quote our 'divi' number (bit like clubcard) every time we shopped. The 'divi' was paid out once or twice a year and went towards the cost of school shoes (bought at the main Co-op in town) and Christmas shopping.
We did not feel 'poor' and, to the best of my recollection, did not actually want for anything - although it has to be said that there was only one commercial channel, which carried adverts for such luxuries a 'Murray Mints', Flash and MacCleans Toothpaste, so I suppose the creation of a consumer culture was, then, only in it's embryo stage.
One of my lasting memories was that of price stability - Petrol, for example, remained at around 3s and 10d (about 18pence) a gallon (4.5 litres) until way into the early 70's - in fact I got rid of a Rover 100 in 1974 because petrol went up to 50P a gallon! - and all of this was before the discovery of North Sea Oil, which was hailed as Britain's Economic Salvation.
I was educated to A level standard, but did not go to University as my elder brother was already there and my parents could not afford to have two of us at uni at the same time - to be honest it didn't bother me.
We bought our first house for £7,000 in 1974 (had we bought it three months earlier, it would have cost £3,000) the inflation spiral was, then, just beginning. We had a fixed rate mortgage, through the local authority, of 7.5%. Our second, and current, house cost us £10,500 in 1976 - we had a mortgage of £9,000 at 11.5% (rose to about 15% at its peak) and yes, we did struggle - my salary, by now, was a heady £2,300 per annum, and my wife was working part time as well as bringing up the children. We managed, but that's all we did.
As things, in the early 80's appeared to get better, salary increases put mortgage payments into perspective, the kids were getting older, we were suddenly presented with a hitherto unheard of scenario called EQUITY. The banks were openly touting us to borrow more money, take out credit cards. We, or so they assured us, had nothing to fear - the rise in property values would more than cover any risk (what they did not tell us was that it would more than cover THEIR risk, but would 'ensnare' us into a life-long trap of debt, the only escape being to lose back to them the only posession of value that we own). I feel that we are 'pawns' in the games of the financial institutions, who feel that it is ok to let us 'taste' the good life, but never actually want us to 'own' a slice of it.
Small wonder, in my opinion, that my 32 year old son still lives with us - he does not earn enough to get a mortgage and does not want to end up in the same situation as me. My eldest daughter and her partner are just entering into a £110,000 mortgage commitment and to be honest it scares me more than them.
Looking at ZTD's graph the bubble is going to burst very soon - what on earth will happen to all these people? The only thing you can be sure of is that the Financial Sector will have its back well and truly covered.
To me this is not an 'Economic Miracle' it is more like feudal times, except that the 'serfs' have been thrown a taste of the alternative - when it is taken away, as it will inevitably be, this time they might just revolt.

Sorry for the ramble - just my thoughts.
Rog2