Council Tax Cost Cutting: reduce your band and grab any discounts Discussion Area

CIS

garymarsden said:

We live in a house with an Annexe that is occupied by my parents. I have recently discovered that my parents should be exempt from paying Council Tax on the Annexe due to the Class W exemption that took effect from 1 April 1997. We all moved into the property in 2009 and my youngest parent was 65 in 2011 (I believe they must both be 65 or over). I informed the council that my parents lived in the Annex in 2013 since they believed it was empty and nobody bothered to inform me of the exemption otherwise we could have claimed then. I have contacted the council and they say they will only refund the past 6 years. Are they entitled to do this or should they refund back to 2011?

Statue of Limitation arguments can be a pain, I've worked more cases with these than any other issue because they're such an argument.

Almost certainly they are applying Arca to refuse the backdating and doing so wrongly.

garymarsden

lincroft1710 said:

garymarsden said:

We live in a house with an Annexe that is occupied by my parents. I have recently discovered that my parents should be exempt from paying Council Tax on the Annexe due to the Class W exemption that took effect from 1 April 1997. We all moved into the property in 2009 and my youngest parent was 65 in 2011 (I believe they must both be 65 or over). I informed the council that my parents lived in the Annex in 2013 since they believed it was empty and nobody bothered to inform me of the exemption otherwise we could have claimed then. I have contacted the council and they say they will only refund the past 6 years. Are they entitled to do this or should they refund back to 2011?

I am a little confused. You state you understand your parents became eligible for the Class W in 2011, but you told the council they lived in the annex in 2013.

Some councils will cite the statute of limitation as the reason they will only refund 6 yrs overpayment and I understand that some councils no longer keep CT payment records beyond 6 yrs. However there is no good legal basis for the former but the latter may be difficult to prove beyond 6 yrs unless your parents have identifiable records of their CT payments for that time.

You need to go back to them and pursue it further.

Thanks for the response. I have all of the Council Tax Bills and bank statements from 2009 since I pay the Council Tax on both the house and Annexe. I told the council that my parents lived in the Annexe in 2013 because they contacted me saying they were about to levy an empty property charge on the Annexe. I remember stating that the annexe was occupied by my parents and they put the account in my parents name. I now think they should have asked for their ages to determine if they would be eligible for exemption. Had they done that at the time we could have claimed a refund to 2011 when my mum reached 65 and avoided paying ever since.

CIS

garymarsden said:

lincroft1710 said:

garymarsden said:

We live in a house with an Annexe that is occupied by my parents. I have recently discovered that my parents should be exempt from paying Council Tax on the Annexe due to the Class W exemption that took effect from 1 April 1997. We all moved into the property in 2009 and my youngest parent was 65 in 2011 (I believe they must both be 65 or over). I informed the council that my parents lived in the Annex in 2013 since they believed it was empty and nobody bothered to inform me of the exemption otherwise we could have claimed then. I have contacted the council and they say they will only refund the past 6 years. Are they entitled to do this or should they refund back to 2011?

I am a little confused. You state you understand your parents became eligible for the Class W in 2011, but you told the council they lived in the annex in 2013.

Some councils will cite the statute of limitation as the reason they will only refund 6 yrs overpayment and I understand that some councils no longer keep CT payment records beyond 6 yrs. However there is no good legal basis for the former but the latter may be difficult to prove beyond 6 yrs unless your parents have identifiable records of their CT payments for that time.

You need to go back to them and pursue it further.

Thanks for the response. I have all of the Council Tax Bills and bank statements from 2009 since I pay the Council Tax on both the house and Annexe. I told the council that my parents lived in the Annexe in 2013 because they contacted me saying they were about to levy an empty property charge on the Annexe. I remember stating that the annexe was occupied by my parents and they put the account in my parents name. I now think they should have asked for their ages to determine if they would be eligible for exemption. Had they done that at the time we could have claimed a refund to 2011 when my mum reached 65 and avoided paying ever since.

The age point is getting in to technical issues of council tax legislation and what actions need to be taken by the council. It's not however an argument that is specifically needed for backdating to be undertaken.

As your parents are the liable party then they dispute needs to be in their name.

Lenny1888

Hi, 
In September 2009 I challenged my council tax band for my property by submitting my grounds to the Lanarkshire Valuation Board after carrying out your two step check.
In my submission I cited properties in Carluke (ML8) South Lanarkshire governed by the Lanarkshire Valuation Board and Garthamlock (G33) Glasgow City Council. The properties I cited were the exact same house that I purchased and became liable for Council Tax On 19/08/2005. The properties in Carluke and Garthamlock were built by Persimmon, the same builder that built my property. The properties Council Tax Band we’re ‘D’ whereas my Council Tax Band ‘E’. Unfortunately I do not have a hardcopy of my submission or an electronic copy as some years have passed and my PC crashed many years ago.
I do have a letter dated 30/03/2010 from Lanarkshire Valuation Appeal Board. The letter cites Regulation 5(7) of the Council Tax (Alteration of Lists and Appeals) (Scotland) Regulations 1993; this deals with properties that are added to the valuation list after the list originally came into force on 1st April 1993. They rejected my grounds of appeal in accordance with b of the aforementioned regulation:
(b) The proposal is made within six months of the date on which the Assessor gave notification that the valuation list had been altered to include the dwelling (or of any appeal decision which gives effect to the alteration). They also quote (a), (c) and (d). They state the notice of banding was issued on 16/08/2005, I became the CT payer on 19/08/2005. The last date I had to appeal was 19/02/2006. As I did not submit my appeal until 26/09/2009 and my appeal was rejected. My property was built in 2005.
Their decision was final and my only recourse of appeal was to appeal to the Court of Session on a point of law.
I was told, word of mouth that money saving expert gave advice that if the SAA hid behind the Regulation 5. I cannot find this advice online, I do not know when this advice was issued or indeed if it was by money saving expert.
I have checked the same house in my Estate, they all appear to be band ‘E’. However, by doing your two step check I am confident I should be band ‘D’, the same as properties in Carluke (ML8) and Garthamlock (G33).
Can you advise me if there is anything else open to me to submit an appeal or proposal?
Thanks in advance.

lincroft1710

Lenny1888 said:

Hi, 
In September 2009 I challenged my council tax band for my property by submitting my grounds to the Lanarkshire Valuation Board after carrying out your two step check.
In my submission I cited properties in Carluke (ML8) South Lanarkshire governed by the Lanarkshire Valuation Board and Garthamlock (G33) Glasgow City Council. The properties I cited were the exact same house that I purchased and became liable for Council Tax On 19/08/2005. The properties in Carluke and Garthamlock were built by Persimmon, the same builder that built my property. The properties Council Tax Band we’re ‘D’ whereas my Council Tax Band ‘E’. Unfortunately I do not have a hardcopy of my submission or an electronic copy as some years have passed and my PC crashed many years ago.
I do have a letter dated 30/03/2010 from Lanarkshire Valuation Appeal Board. The letter cites Regulation 5(7) of the Council Tax (Alteration of Lists and Appeals) (Scotland) Regulations 1993; this deals with properties that are added to the valuation list after the list originally came into force on 1st April 1993. They rejected my grounds of appeal in accordance with b of the aforementioned regulation:
(b) The proposal is made within six months of the date on which the Assessor gave notification that the valuation list had been altered to include the dwelling (or of any appeal decision which gives effect to the alteration). They also quote (a), (c) and (d). They state the notice of banding was issued on 16/08/2005, I became the CT payer on 19/08/2005. The last date I had to appeal was 19/02/2006. As I did not submit my appeal until 26/09/2009 and my appeal was rejected. My property was built in 2005.
Their decision was final and my only recourse of appeal was to appeal to the Court of Session on a point of law.
I was told, word of mouth that money saving expert gave advice that if the SAA hid behind the Regulation 5. I cannot find this advice online, I do not know when this advice was issued or indeed if it was by money saving expert.
I have checked the same house in my Estate, they all appear to be band ‘E’. However, by doing your two step check I am confident I should be band ‘D’, the same as properties in Carluke (ML8) and Garthamlock (G33).
Can you advise me if there is anything else open to me to submit an appeal or proposal?
Thanks in advance.

Comparing the your home with the same houses in different areas is not good practice. The MSE 2 step check is not an infallible method of proving a band is incorrect. You were out of time to submit a proposal in 2009, so are now even more out of time and there is nothing you can appeal against.

If the Assessor is anything like the VOA (their English equivalent) they will ask you to supply evidence to support your request for a reband. As the CT band of all houses the same as yours on your estate is Band E, then I can't see you have anything that would persuade the Assessor your band is wrong, unless you can find other houses of a similar type and size nearby.

Lenny1888

lincroft1710 said:

Lenny1888 said:

Hi, 
In September 2009 I challenged my council tax band for my property by submitting my grounds to the Lanarkshire Valuation Board after carrying out your two step check.
In my submission I cited properties in Carluke (ML8) South Lanarkshire governed by the Lanarkshire Valuation Board and Garthamlock (G33) Glasgow City Council. The properties I cited were the exact same house that I purchased and became liable for Council Tax On 19/08/2005. The properties in Carluke and Garthamlock were built by Persimmon, the same builder that built my property. The properties Council Tax Band we’re ‘D’ whereas my Council Tax Band ‘E’. Unfortunately I do not have a hardcopy of my submission or an electronic copy as some years have passed and my PC crashed many years ago.
I do have a letter dated 30/03/2010 from Lanarkshire Valuation Appeal Board. The letter cites Regulation 5(7) of the Council Tax (Alteration of Lists and Appeals) (Scotland) Regulations 1993; this deals with properties that are added to the valuation list after the list originally came into force on 1st April 1993. They rejected my grounds of appeal in accordance with b of the aforementioned regulation:
(b) The proposal is made within six months of the date on which the Assessor gave notification that the valuation list had been altered to include the dwelling (or of any appeal decision which gives effect to the alteration). They also quote (a), (c) and (d). They state the notice of banding was issued on 16/08/2005, I became the CT payer on 19/08/2005. The last date I had to appeal was 19/02/2006. As I did not submit my appeal until 26/09/2009 and my appeal was rejected. My property was built in 2005.
Their decision was final and my only recourse of appeal was to appeal to the Court of Session on a point of law.
I was told, word of mouth that money saving expert gave advice that if the SAA hid behind the Regulation 5. I cannot find this advice online, I do not know when this advice was issued or indeed if it was by money saving expert.
I have checked the same house in my Estate, they all appear to be band ‘E’. However, by doing your two step check I am confident I should be band ‘D’, the same as properties in Carluke (ML8) and Garthamlock (G33).
Can you advise me if there is anything else open to me to submit an appeal or proposal?
Thanks in advance.

Comparing the your home with the same houses in different areas is not good practice. The MSE 2 step check is not an infallible method of proving a band is incorrect. You were out of time to submit a proposal in 2009, so are now even more out of time and there is nothing you can appeal against.

If the Assessor is anything like the VOA (their English equivalent) they will ask you to supply evidence to support your request for a reband. As the CT band of all houses the same as yours on your estate is Band E, then I can't see you have anything that would persuade the Assessor your band is wrong, unless you can find other houses of a similar type and size nearby.

Thanks, it was just that someone sad although they quoted legislation as I per my post I could take it further. I just wondered if this was correct. I appreciate there are differences between English/Welsh law and Scottish law. Thanks for your response.

koskks

Hi, We bought a house 2 years ago where the garage (which is attached to the house) was converted into an annexe by the previous owner. We pay 2 sets of council tax (annexe is at 50% rate).  The annexe has a bedroom, bathroom and kitchen. We use the annex as a utility room and spare bedroom with ensuite if family stays over (1ce every few months). I'm happy to remove the cooking facilities (as we've never used them) from the kitchen, therefore hopefully it can be classified as just part of the house and not an annexe, therefore not paying council tax on the annexe. Could our house then be rebanded if we do this as it will have an additional bathroom and bedroom, or can this only be done when we sell? Apart from removing the cooker and the cable back to the fuse box, is there anytime else we may have to do to satisfy the VOA that it is no longer an annexe? Thank you

Penguinloz

koskks said:

Hi, We bought a house 2 years ago where the garage (which is attached to the house) was converted into an annexe by the previous owner. We pay 2 sets of council tax (annexe is at 50% rate).  The annexe has a bedroom, bathroom and kitchen. We use the annex as a utility room and spare bedroom with ensuite if family stays over (1ce every few months). I'm happy to remove the cooking facilities (as we've never used them) from the kitchen, therefore hopefully it can be classified as just part of the house and not an annexe, therefore not paying council tax on the annexe. Could our house then be rebanded if we do this as it will have an additional bathroom and bedroom, or can this only be done when we sell? Apart from removing the cooker and the cable back to the fuse box, is there anytime else we may have to do to satisfy the VOA that it is no longer an annexe? Thank you

Depending on the amount of work you do to remove the cooking facilities they may not remove it. For example if they believe cooking facilities could easisly be reinstated and there are still worktops,sink, microwave etc they may say it is still capable of being used as a self contained unit of accommodation. If they do remove it they would look at the banding of the whole house again. This may increase the band or it may stay in the same band. 

lincroft1710

koskks said:

Hi, We bought a house 2 years ago where the garage (which is attached to the house) was converted into an annexe by the previous owner. We pay 2 sets of council tax (annexe is at 50% rate).  The annexe has a bedroom, bathroom and kitchen. We use the annex as a utility room and spare bedroom with ensuite if family stays over (1ce every few months). I'm happy to remove the cooking facilities (as we've never used them) from the kitchen, therefore hopefully it can be classified as just part of the house and not an annexe, therefore not paying council tax on the annexe. Could our house then be rebanded if we do this as it will have an additional bathroom and bedroom, or can this only be done when we sell? Apart from removing the cooker and the cable back to the fuse box, is there anytime else we may have to do to satisfy the VOA that it is no longer an annexe? Thank you

My advice to you would be to contact the VOA and ask what alterations you need to do, so that they are satisfied the annex no longer qualifies as a separate dwelling. I think what you propose is correct but some VOAs appear to want more work carried out.

koskks

lincroft1710 said:

koskks said:

Hi, We bought a house 2 years ago where the garage (which is attached to the house) was converted into an annexe by the previous owner. We pay 2 sets of council tax (annexe is at 50% rate).  The annexe has a bedroom, bathroom and kitchen. We use the annex as a utility room and spare bedroom with ensuite if family stays over (1ce every few months). I'm happy to remove the cooking facilities (as we've never used them) from the kitchen, therefore hopefully it can be classified as just part of the house and not an annexe, therefore not paying council tax on the annexe. Could our house then be rebanded if we do this as it will have an additional bathroom and bedroom, or can this only be done when we sell? Apart from removing the cooker and the cable back to the fuse box, is there anytime else we may have to do to satisfy the VOA that it is no longer an annexe? Thank you

My advice to you would be to contact the VOA and ask what alterations you need to do, so that they are satisfied the annex no longer qualifies as a separate dwelling. I think what you propose is correct but some VOAs appear to want more work carried out. 

Thank you for your response, I've tried calling the VOA but due to Covid-19, they're not taking calls, so I've emailed and hope to get a reply.  If the VOA can reassess the council tax band for the whole house if the annexe is incorporated, it will likely go up a band, as we'll have added a bedroom and bathroom, especially comparing it to our neighbours which are also a band higher (as they'd already extended). I'll wait and see what the VOA say!