Council Tax Cost Cutting: reduce your band and grab any discounts Discussion Area

exvoperson

I had a similar situation in Somerset when I had appeals on six properties and was told by VOA that if I took a test case to VT and won they would not alter the list on the other identical properties. Hence I took all six cases at once-and won!
I suggest you ask for the case file on your neighbours property under the freedom of information act, they may delete any restricted information but it may give you some useful information. Ask VO if they intend to produce any fresh information. Got to VT with the decision and go through it don't just briefly refer to it. Also make sure both properties are identical as I recently lost a case because the main comparable which had been reduced by voa was slightly overlooked by adjacent properties and that was enough for VT to distinguish between the 2 properties. Good luck

ctax

lincroft1710 wrote: »

I'm ex VOA. If the VOA disagree with the VT decision to that extent, then it seems as if the VT made a perverse decision. It is not unknown for the VOA to take this attitude but it is not a common occurrence.

Any case brought before a VT will be judged solely on the evidence presented by both VOA and taxpayer. VTs can choose to ignore the decision of a previous VT, but it is usually when the previous VT upheld the band.

I would suggest you go to the VT website and look at the details of the decision in respect of your neighbour's property. Also contact him and ask if you can see what evidence he put forward.

Hi Lincroft1710,

I have already requested the information from my neighbour and will look at the VT website for details on the judgement.

With regards to the previous decision, it seems that the VOA believe the decision to lower the neighbour's banding was incorrect. With this being the case, are they likely to present more compelling evidence at the VT or simply a more robust argument to back-up the previous evidence? I appreciate this is a 'finger-in-the-air' type question but my view is that this test case would not be being brought to the VT unless the VOA were quite confident that they would win.

Thanks.

ctax

exvoperson wrote: »

I had a similar situation in Somerset when I had appeals on six properties and was told by VOA that if I took a test case to VT and won they would not alter the list on the other identical properties. Hence I took all six cases at once-and won!
I suggest you ask for the case file on your neighbours property under the freedom of information act, they may delete any restricted information but it may give you some useful information. Ask VO if they intend to produce any fresh information. Got to VT with the decision and go through it don't just briefly refer to it. Also make sure both properties are identical as I recently lost a case because the main comparable which had been reduced by voa was slightly overlooked by adjacent properties and that was enough for VT to distinguish between the 2 properties. Good luck

Hi Exvoperson,

The VOA have already indicated to me that they will be submitting the same evidence but this situation may change by the time the tribunal date is set - hence the question in my previous post, above.

I can confirm that there is nothing different in terms of the dwelling size (room numbers, sizes etc.).

Thanks.

lincroft1710

The VOA may well make a concerted effort to find more evidence and present their case in a more determined manner. Your last post implies that your house and your neighbour's are very similar but not identical. If this is so they may also try to show that your house is better than your neighbour's.

RichyRich

I sent a proposal to the local valuation office when we moved in which was refused by the listing officer so we are now at appeal stage. I have submitted a written submission to the valuation tribunal (as I will be unable to attend personally) and am now trying to ascertain whether it is necessary to send a copy to the VOA.

I rang the valuation tribunal who said it "would be nice" for me to send it to them, which wasn't the question I asked, so I emailed and was told I "should" send it.

What I want to know is whether there is a statutory requirement to send it, because I feel that if I do the VOA will be at an unfair advantage as they will know all my arguments in advance, can preapre responses to them, and I won't be there to argue my corner. On the other hand, I certainly don't want my appeal struck out for failure to follow procedure. So I have emailed back and asked for confirmation, but does anyone here know the answer?

On an unrelated note, has anyone else found the VOA utterly insufferable to deal with? When they came round and measured the flat I had to ask them three times to send me a copy of the measurements, whcih I only received twelve days before my (original) hearing - after the 14 day deadline for written submissions - hence we were not able to agree the measurements and hence why my hearing has now been rescheduled.

We were also told by the VOA officer who visited that she could tell our flat was Band D "just by standing in it" - surely the VOA has a duty to value flats based on the 1991 value not merely by sticking their finger in the air and having a good old hunch about it!

lincroft1710

No it is not a requirement to show the VOA a copy of your submission.

However if it contains claims or statements which may need to be verified or could be disputed, then if this is presented at VT whether the taxpayer is present or not, then a further adjournment may be necessary. They have to send you their evidence, so it is courtesy to send them yours. You may even have made a good enough case, that the VOA decide you are in fact correct and reduce your band. In any event as you're not present VOA can still demolish your submission as they will be asked for their comments by the VT.

Would agree that the VOA should have been more proactive re the measurements,

It is not impossible for an experienced VOA caseworker to accurately guess the band by standing in or looking at the property. I'm ex VOA and in certain areas I could spot a Band G at 500 paces and could accurately place many, many houses into Band B. A more scientific approach is recommended however, especially within earshot of the council taxpayer!

RichyRich

lincroft1710 wrote: »

It is not impossible for an experienced VOA caseworker to accurately guess the band by standing in or looking at the property. I'm ex VOA and in certain areas I could spot a Band G at 500 paces and could accurately place many, many houses into Band B. A more scientific approach is recommended however, especially within earshot of the council taxpayer!

Whilst I'm sure what you're saying is true I think it exemplifies everything that is wrong with the council tax banding system.

At appeal it's for the appellant to satisfy the tribunal that the VOA's opinion is wrong. But the VOA are experienced property valuation professionals and the appellant, more often than not, is a novice. Surely it should be for the burden of proof to fall on the professional valuer rather than the person who works in an entirely unrelated field and doesn't have 35 hours a week to learn about property valuation.

Round my way there are houses at least twice as big as my flat that fall into the same or a lower band. But the valuation tribunal won't take that into account because it will only compare like with like, i.e. houses with houses and flats with flats. So even though houses are and always have been worth more than flats this compelling evidence is deemed inadmissible.

My final gripe is that all they will really accept as comparables are 1991 sales. Joe (or Jo) Public simply don't have access to sales data. Sure, they can request sales data for properties from the VOA - but only 6 (or the number of properties the VOA cites if more). What happens if none of those 6 properties were sold in 1991? Tough t!tties. Also by asking the VOA for details of the properties you deem similar you cannot avoid "tipping them off" by showing your hand as to what you've found - giving the VOA carte blanche to search their extensive database of sales to find some properties with the sole intention of rebutting the appellants' contentions.

With this weight of advantage against the lay-appellant it is little wonder that in the vast majority of cases the VOA wins at tribunal. It doesn't help that the tribunal cannot award costs, so in the majority of cases appointing a valuation specialist to help will simply be uneconomical even in the event the appellant wins.

RichyRich

...and don't get me started on the "tone of the list" LOL!

Just because very few people appeal against their banding doesn't mean that a property would have sold for any particular value in 1991...

lincroft1710

I have appeared before many VTs in 3 different counties. Every one of them expected the VOA to show proof that the band was correct. I accept (and am aware) that other VTs may put the onus of proof upon the appellant.

The rules of appeal, evidence and VT hearings are mostly laid down in legislation passed by parliament and VOA has to abide by legislation. As 1991 is the date for CT valuations, there is little point in referring to, for example, 2011 sale prices. Common sense also says compare like with like. The system is far from perfect but that is what is currently in place and after 18 years there seems to be no attempt to change anything.

You seem to have a fixation about keeping your evidence secret from the VOA. If you know something that the VOA don't and you "spring" it at VT and it means the VOA has to ask for an adjournment to check it out, you will not be popular with the VT. VT is a last resort, if you think you have compelling evidence to support your case, you should have previously discussed this with the VOA.

getsct

Exactly lets not forget the last government canned the reval on council tax back in 2007, because it would have proved unpopular! Wales went ahead with theres so there list is for 2005 house prices. This government will not touch the idea of a revaluation whilst they are in power! That and the fact both VT and VOA are going though mass changes at the moment, reducing in size losing valuable experienced staff and cutting back on offices it has! Any anger should be directed to messrs cameron and clegg! and not the VOA!