Council Tax Cost Cutting: reduce your band and grab any discounts Discussion Area

Maisie

yorkshirerose wrote: »

Hi,

I was hoping to get rebanded from B to A as 15 houses identical to mine are band A.

I have received a letter from the VOA saying they do not agree that i should be in a lower band. The reasons given :


Date of Valuation - satisfied property reflecting April 1991 value lies wthiin range for that banding.

Assumptions about the property and its locality -blah blah blah.

Assumptions about repair - blah blah blah.

Basis of value - my banding is based on evidence of actual sales of similar properties at or around 1 April 1991.

Lower bandings on similar properties in the area

They are saying they may have been extended to a similar size to mine - funny that, as they always have been 3 bedroom semi's like mine.

Another reason that a banding may be lower is a result of an appeal

There are occasions where other properties are in a lower band as a result of an error and will consider whether other properties need to be increased.


It also says there is no right of appeal against the decision.

Is there anything i can do as their decision is clearly wrong.
Any help appreciated.

yorkshire rose..
Have the other houses appealed in the past? Look on the https://www.voa.gov.uk site it will tell you

If they have appealed and got a lower banding that's more evidence and support for you.. Ask the neighbours if they have extended as voa says. More evidence for you if voa wrong.

Look to see what your house was worth in 1991.

As for 'no right to appeal' look at zebedee's and guppy's posts on this page .

You'll have to do your homework and build up a case to submit to the voa. If you read this thread there's loads of information and expert advice to support you.

It's not always as easy as it sounds from the 'SUCCESS' threads but keep going.

Good luck. Maisie

Maisie

frugalpam wrote: »

Having read the 'success' thread, I'd thought it was going to be easier than it's proving to be! It's hard work researching info on 1991 house sale prices, pulling together evidence to support my request for a re-assessment.
On my trawlings online and in the local area, I met an amazing man in his 70's or maybe 80's who'd taken on the VOA. He lives in a bungalow almost identical to mine in the same area (half a mile away), and I discovered he was on a lower band (B) than myself (C). I called round to explain I was challenging my banding, and to ask him permission to take a photo of his bungalow from the road, to add to my evidence. He took great glee in telling me how he'd taken on the VOA and 'wouldn't be fobbed off' by them. He succeeded in arguing his case for Band B. I'm almost tempted to hire him to take on my case !!

Pam

Pam sounds just like the right kind of person you need to support your appeal. Keep friendly with him!!

As you are finding out same as some others of us on this thread that this appeal business is not as easy as it looks on SUCCESS thread. They're lucky people who have had an easy ride to get rebanding.

This Council tax rebanding issue for which I was the original poster way back in August 2005. Although it has helped many I am having a long slog to get my rebanding. ( For closed thread see page 1 of this new thread. Plenty of information and advice on there).

Good luck Pam and we may all win in the end!

Maisie

yorkshirerose

Maisie

Thanks for the reply. 17 houses on the street are banded A and 14 including mine are B.

On 2 of the band A's at the side it says effective from 23/1/98

There is a "band pending" on one of the band B houses.

There is no way the band A houses have been extended to the size of mine, as the houses are all identical, all 3 bedroom semis built at the same time.

I cannot see how half the street can be one band and the other half be another.

Looking at the Nationwide house prices for 1991 the houses come under band B, so how are some banded A?

grace21

I have finally got a reply to my letter (please see original posting on page 51). Just to recap I got rebanded but my local council would only rebate 6yrs instead of the full 14yr rebate I'm entitled too.
In the council's letter they state they have had legal advice from a barrister and have been given the following advice although I have an potential claim it would be within the scope of section 32 of the Limitation Act 1980 which means that any amounts paid more than 6 years ago are time-barred so the council is entitled not to pay!!
Plus the council does not get recompense from the government so any backdating would be at the expense of the residents of the city.
They do say that I can ask for a further investigation by the Standards and Complaints Team.

Has anyone come up against before?

I'm not the complaining type but I do think this is unjust.

Maisie

grace21.

Sounds if you may have a claim against voa for incorrect banding and they should pay rest of the refund if council won't.

I'm sure one of the other contributors to this thread will come along soon and offer some good advice.

Good luck. Maisie

guppy

grace21 wrote: »

I have finally got a reply to my letter (please see original posting on page 51). Just to recap I got rebanded but my local council would only rebate 6yrs instead of the full 14yr rebate I'm entitled too.
In the council's letter they state they have had legal advice from a barrister and have been given the following advice although I have an potential claim it would be within the scope of section 32 of the Limitation Act 1980 which means that any amounts paid more than 6 years ago are time-barred so the council is entitled not to pay!!
Plus the council does not get recompense from the government so any backdating would be at the expense of the residents of the city.
They do say that I can ask for a further investigation by the Standards and Complaints Team.

Has anyone come up against before?

I'm not the complaining type but I do think this is unjust.

Hello,

First of all I'm not a lawyer, but I really don't think you'll need one to get your money if you kick up a fuss about this unjust situation.

Virtually every other council across the country (check the successes thread) pays back to 1993.

Experience leads me to think the council are trying it on and that they are on very shaky ground. I think this was also discussed on the successes board. Although it affects their budget that is not your problem, you are only trying to get back what you overpaid through no fault of your own (without interest probably).

Their barrister probably doesn't know his stuff about Council Tax, or he wouldn't be out on a limb in contrast to all the other councils. Council Tax law is quite specialised and is set out by parliament (Local Government Finance Act 1992) hence all the strange rules regarding the appeal process etc...you can't just sue the VOA in court if you think your band is wrong.

Rather than getting bogged down in law it may be worth writing to your MP. This is a customer service issue as much as anything.

Telling a member of the public, that "we think we can do this lawfully, but you can always complain or sue us to check" is not acceptable!

Explain the situation, and say that you feel your council are trying to bully you in to giving up your overpayments. The MP will write to the council on your behalf asking for an explanation, which often works wonders to concentrate bureaucratic minds.

On a technical note:

As I understand it, the Limitations Act 1980 "provides that recovery action for debts should commence within six years from the debt becoming payable."
(From http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/recmanual/REC1303.htm)

While you may have been in the wrong band since 1993, you weren't legally overpaying at that point, and the council certainly didn't owe you any money at that point.

The council must charge you (and you have to pay) an amount based on the band shown in the Valuation List. Even if that band is obviously incorrect, it is still the band that you must pay on, until its changed in the Valuation List.

So...the entire "debt payable" to you (the amount overpaid since 1993) only came in to existence from the date the Valuation Office altered the valuation list. This is the date they sent the notice of alteration to you, not 1/4/1993. The council are given notice on this date too.)

It is the date the alteration was made that is relevant (in my opinion) not when it was backdated to. In 1994, 1995, 1996 etc. there was no "debt payable".

Since the debt only came in to existence in the last couple of weeks all this talk of "limited to six years" is nonsense. Of course if your band was altered ten years ago and you never claimed the money that would be a different matter.

Hope you're still awake after that rant, and that the above makes sense. If the council mess you about I'd just write to your MP.

Good luck!

grace21

guppy wrote: »

Hello,

First of all I'm not a lawyer, but I really don't think you'll need one to get your money if you kick up a fuss about this unjust situation.

Virtually every other council across the country (check the successes thread) pays back to 1993.

Experience leads me to think the council are trying it on and that they are on very shaky ground. I think this was also discussed on the successes board. Although it affects their budget that is not your problem, you are only trying to get back what you overpaid through no fault of your own (without interest probably).

Their barrister probably doesn't know his stuff about Council Tax, or he wouldn't be out on a limb in contrast to all the other councils. Council Tax law is quite specialised and is set out by parliament (Local Government Finance Act 1992) hence all the strange rules regarding the appeal process etc...you can't just sue the VOA in court if you think your band is wrong.

Rather than getting bogged down in law it may be worth writing to your MP. This is a customer service issue as much as anything.

Telling a member of the public, that "we think we can do this lawfully, but you can always complain or sue us to check" is not acceptable!

Explain the situation, and say that you feel your council are trying to bully you in to giving up your overpayments. The MP will write to the council on your behalf asking for an explanation, which often works wonders to concentrate bureaucratic minds.

On a technical note:

As I understand it, the Limitations Act 1980 "provides that recovery action for debts should commence within six years from the debt becoming payable."
(From http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/recmanual/REC1303.htm)

While you may have been in the wrong band since 1993, you weren't legally overpaying at that point, and the council certainly didn't owe you any money at that point.

The council must charge you (and you have to pay) an amount based on the band shown in the Valuation List. Even if that band is obviously incorrect, it is still the band that you must pay on, until its changed in the Valuation List.

So...the entire "debt payable" to you (the amount overpaid since 1993) only came in to existence from the date the Valuation Office altered the valuation list. This is the date they sent the notice of alteration to you, not 1/4/1993. The council are given notice on this date too.)

It is the date the alteration was made that is relevant (in my opinion) not when it was backdated to. In 1994, 1995, 1996 etc. there was no "debt payable".

Since the debt only came in to existence in the last couple of weeks all this talk of "limited to six years" is nonsense. Of course if your band was altered ten years ago and you never claimed the money that would be a different matter.

Hope you're still awake after that rant, and that the above makes sense. If the council mess you about I'd just write to your MP.

Good luck!

Hi Guppy,
Many thanks for your detailed reply. Should I be challenging the council or the VOA?
Grace

guppy

grace21 wrote: »

Hi Guppy,
Many thanks for your detailed reply. Should I be challenging the council or the VOA?
Grace

The council. The VOA only deal with valuation matters, the council are responsible for the finance side. The council's administration of the tax is all set out in law too, and to my knowledge there is no mention of time limits for council tax.

As soon as you get the notice from the VOA saying the valuation list has been altered, then the council will owe you a refund. Most councils just pay up.

Personally I don't think your council have a leg to stand on. I would get back on to them, with your MP's help if necessary (just send him/her a letter requesting help, very simple). If that fails, and your council are somehow correct, then technically you could chase the VOA to settle with you for the difference. But I believe that would be far harder and time consuming.

Good luck!

square-eyes

jamesiebabie wrote: »

Square-eyes,

There is no problem with you phoning up the VOA and asking to speak to the Council Tax team [CT team], they should be more than happy to tell you the current situation. Just ask and see what they say. Try and put a deadline on it, say 2-3 weeks. But I think the VOA are very busy at the moment due to MSE's appearance on the 'Tonight' programme last month.

Be patient, it will come to he who waits.

J

I tried phoneing two weks ago and the VOA said they would phone me back (they didn't). They siad they had been snowed under because of some "TV programme". I wonder whether it was Martin Lewis? It has been 10 weeks waiting now.

giggler

When I first found out about incorrect council tax rates, my first thought was…we will all be the same, but checked anyway. I couldn’t believe it. Most of my street were all B’s, including my immediate neighbours and other half of our semi, but myself and 4 other properties were C’s. (All other local streets were B’s as well) Rang the VOA as advised and 2 months later I had a very scary letter come back saying they were confident that we were in the right band because of

1991 price sales

our house may have been extended so its bigger than the others (NO!!)

other houses may have appealed

etc etc etc

They also said they would be looking at other properties in the area to make sure they were accurate………SCARY!!! I thought we were going to be the scabs of the area!!! We were also told we could not appeal.

Anyway….We then double and triple checked all the information on our property and were ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED we were right so decided to take it further. We got as much information together as possible.

Photocopies of property sales (asking prices in 1991) from old local newspapers (on microfiche in Main library)

Printouts from the VOA website showing ALL the streets local to us to prove that 99% of properties were band B’s.

We used Nationwide to check the price of our property back in 1991. We bought our property in 1992 for £45000 so we knew what it was worth anyway.

We used websites such as https://www.ourproperty.co.uk and https://www.hometrack.co.uk to find out what properties had been sold in our area since 2000 and how much for. (These are excellent websites as they show EVERY property sold in your area since 2000) .We then used Nationwide to track their values back to 1991 as well.

We also had proof that 4 other identical properties just up from us appealed years ago and were put from a C to a B.

So then I rang the VOA back and asked them what information they had used to confirm they had the correct banding. I put them right on the spot!! The man started waffling on about property prices in 1991, so I was able to shoot him down in flames by telling him we had proof (from old microfiche) of property prices in our area at that time.

As the conversation continued I discovered they had been given wrong information from the land registry as to what we had bought the property for in 1992. So with their calculations he said our property would have been worth £51,000 in 1991.

AHHHHH I said…….but that is under the £52,000 threshhold for Band C so we should be a B anyway.

No he replies…….in borderline cases we treat you the same as everyone else in the street.

AHHHHHHHHH I reply….. that is my point most people in the street are a B!!!! And that is with you using incorrect information on what we bought the property for in 1992, so we shouldn’t even be borderline. It was quite funny really because we had done SO MUCH homework I was able to tie him up in knots.

Anyway the upshot was that he said he would look at the reasons for the other 4 properties winning their appeals and try to treat us the same………….I said ….Are you sure you don’t want me to send all this evidence in!!! Poor man he’d have had a heart attack if he’d seen the amount of stuff we had ( a big A4 ring binders worth!)

2 hours later he rang back….we are now a B and have nice backdated amount coming our way (we are now thinking about the interest!)

So those of you that are struggling……make ABSOLUTELY sure you have your facts right and then go for it ……Many people get the ‘you are in the right band and you cant appeal’ letter. BUT the VOA do have a duty to maintain an accurate list……you can see all their rules and regulations here (some of which I quoted at the VOA man!) http://www.voa.gov.uk/instructions/chapters/council_tax/frame.htm

In our case as well they were using inaccurate information…..ring them up….ask them exactly how they came to their decision.

Always be friendly…..they are more likely to help you if you are polite than if you rant and rave at them.

Hope my epic tale helps someone! And you haven’t all fallen asleep!!!

Giggler xx