Real Disaster Urgent Help Needed

joanna_johnson

further to my post about sect 21 a and b ....sorry a is for periodic and b fixed term...not the other way around as I advised

hudson101_2

joanna_johnson wrote: »

further to my post about sect 21 a and b ....sorry a is for periodic and b fixed term...not the other way around as I advised

Sorry Joanna been a bit of a DIV!!! and now I'm confused

Solicitor issued section 21 dated 11th August 2010 it states:-

Housing act 1988 Section 21
(there is no a or b written anywhere)

To: Me
of: Rental Address

From LL
of: their address

"I give you notice that i require posession of the dweling house (it's a flat) after 10/11/10 or if later, the day on which complete period of your tenancy expires next after the end of two months from the service of this notice

Dated 11/08/10

I recieived it on the 12/08/10

There is some notes on the back which state

1. where an assured shorthold tenancy has become a periodic tenancy, a court must make an order for possession if the landlord has given proper notice in this form

2 where there are joint landlords, as least one of them must give this notice

3 The date specified must be:
a) the last day of the period of the tenancy:
b) at least two months after the date this notice is given:and
c) no sooner than the earliest date on which the tenancy could ordinarily be brought to an end by a notice to quit

Now my understanding is if i signed an extention for the period 21/03/10 to 21/09/10 this should mean that 2 months would be 22/11/10 or am i just been dim???

mynameisdave

Once the main issue of the tenancy problems have been resolved I would consider writing a sternly worded letter to the Chief Superintendent of your local force. He needs to be aware that not all of his officers are as smart as the desk sergent or civillian call centre worker or whoever else correctly told you this is a civil matter.

I'm sure he would not wanting his officers assisting a criminal offence

hudson101_2

mynameisdave wrote: »

Once the main issue of the tenancy problems have been resolved I would consider writing a sternly worded letter to the Chief Superintendent of your local force. He needs to be aware that not all of his officers are as smart as the desk sergent or civillian call centre worker or whoever else correctly told you this is a civil matter.

I'm sure he would not wanting his officers assisting a criminal offence

Interesting you say that as I have just been speaking to someone who claims to know quite a bit about this seems that the LL has acted illegally entering into the agreement which apparently is misrepresentation and is covered by the fraud act 2006 and is a criminal offence and a civil offence.

Now it's all getting a bit scary!!!!

mynameisdave

hudson101 wrote: »

"I give you notice that i require posession of the dweling house (it's a flat) after 10/11/10 or if later, the day on which complete period of your tenancy expires next after the end of two months from the service of this notice

Dated 11/08/10

I recieived it on the 12/08/10

There is some notes on the back which state

1. where an assured shorthold tenancy has become a periodic tenancy, a court must make an order for possession if the landlord has given proper notice in this form This is true, notice from a LL is not enough to end a tenancy. Only the tenant or the court can finalise it

2 where there are joint landlords, as least one of them must give this notice not sure, but if there is only one LL it can be ignored

3 The date specified must be:
a) the last day of the period of the tenancy:
b) at least two months after the date this notice is given:and
c) no sooner than the earliest date on which the tenancy could ordinarily be brought to an end by a notice to quit

S21's need to be accurate, so I am not sure if "10/11/10 or if later, the day on which complete period of your tenancy expires next after the end of two months from the service of this notice" would count. It sounds a confused way of saying on this date or two months after whatever date you next rental period ends.

Now my understanding is if i signed an extention for the period 21/03/10 to 21/09/10 this should mean that 2 months would be 22/11/10 or am i just been dim???

If accurately served the notice would be for valid for October. Two months notice are required but this can be served at any time in the tenancy to expire at any point after the fixed term (although only valid for 12 months IIRC). The date in the month would be the 20th of the month.

hudson101_2

so what about this point of if it's a section a or section b??

I seem to be getting so confused think I'm wrapped up in all sorts of knots. Tempted just to stay the course and take my chances with a judge and let them decide.

Pepzofio

OK, things are getting a bit confused here, I think.

There are two types of S21 notice that can be served depending on whether you are still in the fixed term or have rolled into a periodic tenancy at the point that the notice is served. The names refer to the specific clauses being relied upon in the 1988 Housing Act.

For fixed term tenancies, the relevant clause is S21(1)(b). A minimum of two months notice needs to be given, and it does NOT have to coincide with the end of a rental period.

For periodic tenancies, the relevant clause is S21(4)(a). A minimum of two months notice is needed which must end on the last day of a rental period. Getting this date wrong means the notice is invalid and the judge will throw the case out.

A rental period in OP's case runs from 21st to 20th of each month, so if a S21 was served during the periodic tenancy it would have to end on 20th, with the LL being able to apply for possession after this date (i.e. from 21st).

As for this:

I give you notice that i require posession of the dweling house (it's a flat) after 10/11/10 or if later, the day on which complete period of your tenancy expires next after the end of two months from the service of this notice

The LL appears to be using the 'saving words' which are designed to guard against an improperly dated S21(4)(a) getting a case thrown out of court. Apparently, it has been shown in court to constitute valid notice, even if it does sound nonsensical. OP would have to ask a lawyer whether their LL's particular phrasing fits the 'saving words' criteria, but tbh it's irrelevant, as S21(1)(b) applies here.

As the notice was served during the fixed term, the date of 10th Nov is valid (although LL seems to have given you three months notice instead of the required two). IMHO, the 'saving words' phrase does NOT extend the notice to 20th Nov, as it states "or if later, the day on which [a] complete period of your tenancy expires next after the end of two months from the service of this notice". If the notice was served on 11th August, two months takes you to 10th Oct, the next rental period to end is 21st Sept - 20th Oct. So the LL requires possession "after 10th Nov or 20th Oct, whichever is the later".

But check with a lawyer.

With regards the deposit issue, it's a bit unusual, but IMHO, as long as LL can show that the deposit was 'given' back to you to pay the rent in Jan (albeit with no actual money changing hands), then he should be in the clear. I am assuming he has some written record of this being agreed between you. (Presumably you had to agree to the money being withdrawn from the deposit service?)

benjaminwootton

I don't understand.

If it's the landlords house, and he wants you to leave, why don't you move out and find somewhere else?

What's the point in all of this drama?

There's no deposit to protect by the sounds of things so that's a non issue.

benjaminwootton

Section 21 isn't necessarily an attack on you either. It's just a safety net for the landlord to say that he definetly wants to take the house back on a specific date.

I'm very anti landlord generally but this sounds as though you are being unreasonable.

G_M

To sum up:
1) You have a very considerate landlord who was sympathetic when you had employment problems, and allowed you to skip a month's rent which he covered from the deposit.
2) Presumably since the deposit was protected, you gave your agreement to the scheme to release the deposit for this purpose.
3) The landlord then gave you further leeway and financial help by not demanding the deposit be replaced
4) The landlord now wishes to end the tenancy, for unknown reasons - perhaps to sell the property or whatever. Not important why, and has given you plenty of notice.
5) You have decided to be confrontational regarding the ending of the tenancy, and want to hang on in there for as long as possible thereby making life hard for this landlord.
6) The police attended an inspection, presumably fearing a breach of the peace, since first you, and presumably subsequently the landlord, contacted them ("I had asked the police earlier to attend as the LL rep is know to be a trouble causer ")
7) You are also now concerned the landlord is not protecting a deposit which he does not hold!

My advice is to put your energy into looking for a new place to rent.