Sola profit time frame

csae

That is exactly the point I am making! They are considered unsightly!.

Considered unsightly by whom?. Do you have anything to back that statement up?.

We have SAP calculations and assesments to verify claims, what do you use?

If you get, say, £1500 pa from your panels(FIT/exported & used electricity) it is no different to getting £1,500 pa from investing in other schemes and paying your fuel bills from those funds.

What schemes are your refering to?. What schemes will offer £1500 pa but will also guarantee that income for 25 years for the same level of investment and require no user input after the initial install?

zeupater

csae wrote: »

Hi Zeu.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, but Solar PV isn't going to change the way pricing of new to UK market things evolve.

Whilst we have a good proportion of "Can't wait, won't wait" consumers in this country, suppliers of all things new will take advantage.

Thanks CSAE:)

Hi

I completely agree with that appraisal of UK business practice and suspect that we must therefore agree that the industry should really cease to claim that the business exists mainly/entirely due to a 'green' concience and the 'greater future good' along with using a 'marginal profit' defence if the sector is to be taken seriously.

Regards

noncom_2

Can we please stop all the Big Coloured Letters, it makes the thread quite hard to read......?

In answer to the last question, a similar "scheme" would be to take the initial 15k "investment" and instead pay it off your mortgage. Now at current interest rates, that won't produce anywhere near a £1500pa saving, but on the other hand your mortgage is permanently £15k lower, whereas the amount you would otherwise spend on panels etc depreciates to nothing (at a rate which is hard to calculate/guess).

Paying off your mortgage requires no maintenance, no new inverters, no cleaning etc etc etc, expenses which might be required in the 25 year life of a Solar PV system.

In short, from my calculations, Solar PV should over the very long term, be a somewhat better "investment" (disregarding any ethical considerations) than using that money to reduce my mortgage. But the calculations are subject to a lot of variables, and over the next 25 years it may turn out to be a much better, or a much worse, decision than I currently reckon.

Taking into account the ethics of it, that sways me in the direction of installing PV, and my system is actually being installed next month. But for someone looking at it from a purely financial point of view, there are other options available which offer similar (and arguably lower risk) returns.

Andy

Cardew

Do you not feel the term 'you are getting a little confused' rather patronising?

Firstly the aesthetic considerations.

If planning permission has to be sought for conservation areas and listed buildings - and that (generally) won't be granted if the panel are visible from the road - what would you feel is the reason for that regulation?

Of course some people don't like their appearance!

Secondly, my posts have consistently stated that Solar PV with the current level of subsidy is a very good long term investment and certainly after 10-15 years(or however long it takes to break even) it is very likely to produce an excellent income.

The term 'free electricity' is meaningless when talking about investment income - just salesman's patter! You get income from that investment. If you grew bananas on your roof and got the same income(from the 3 sources-FIT/export/sold electricity)) as Solar PV it is no different - just investment income.

Noncom in the post above has given one example of an alternative way to invest £15k - namely paying off a mortgage - and concluded the solar PV is a better long term investment in his circumstances.

Of course I don't know of a better long term investment than solar PV - or at least an investment with an acceptable degree of risk. I personally do not want to buy something(solar PV) where I have to wait 10 to 15 years to reap the benefit of that purchase.

csae

Cardew wrote: »

Do you not feel the term 'you are getting a little confused' rather patronising?

Firstly the aesthetic considerations.

If planning permission has to be sought for conservation areas and listed buildings - and that (generally) won't be granted if the panel are visible from the road - what would you feel is the reason for that regulation?

Of course some people don't like their appearance!

Secondly, my posts have consistently stated that Solar PV with the current level of subsidy is a very good long term investment and certainly after 10-15 years(or however long it takes to break even) it is very likely to produce an excellent income.

The term 'free electricity' is meaningless when talking about investment income - just salesman's patter! You get income from that investment. If you grew bananas on your roof and got the same income(from the 3 sources-FIT/export/sold electricity)) as Solar PV it is no different - just investment income.

Noncom in the post above has given one example of an alternative way to invest £15k - namely paying off a mortgage - and concluded the solar PV is a better long term investment in his circumstances.

Of course I don't know of a better long term investment than solar PV - or at least an investment with an acceptable degree of risk. I personally do not want to buy something(solar PV) where I have to wait 10 to 15 years to reap the benefit of that purchase.

Apologies Cardew, Yes it was a little patronising. But you have still swerved the point of someone inheriting a system(due to housemove) gaining an income, for something they haven't invested in. Someone would have to be pretty pig headed with regards the look of the panels, to be not enamoured with it.

Noncom.I agree, making an overpayment on the mortgage is a nice idea, not free from penalties or costs in most instances I expect though.

Another action of course, would be to make overpayments anually to the mortgage account with the FITS payments.

Conservation areas have rules and so they should, the Nouveau rich would make everywhere look like an episode of Footballers Wives if they didn't.

I still feel people are making a little too much of the cleaning and Inverter swap costs. We don't know that any of these extras are needed, cleaning can be done by the window cleaner with his pole set up if needed, no great shakes!.

Thanks CSAE:)

noncom_2

I don't really agree that overpaying on a mortgage has to incur penalties or costs.

Yes, many people (myself included) may be on a fixed- or discounted-rate deal which incurs a penalty for early redemption, but most of these will be no longer than 3 years or so.

It would be easy to "invest" the money in something else (eg a 3-year fixed interest account) first and simply re-mortgage when the time was right.

The calculations on how much money would be "lost" this way are easy to do and can be factored into the comparison with Solar PV.

Don't get me wrong, I'm (kind of) on your side: I think Solar PV represents a good long-term investment as well as a good ethical decision. But the Solar Industry (I don't aim this at you specifically) is using the FITs - and many people's limited financial/mathematical understanding - to make some exaggerated claims (such as the famous "10% tax free returns" fallacy), and that is what threads like this are useful in unpicking.

Cardew

noncom wrote: »

I think Solar PV represents a good long-term investment as well as a good ethical decision. But the Solar Industry (I don't aim this at you specifically) is using the FITs - and many people's limited financial/mathematical understanding - to make some exaggerated claims (such as the famous "10% tax free returns" fallacy), and that is what threads like this are useful in unpicking.

That is an excellent summing up of the situation, that nobody who with a reasonable appreciation of solar PV and even 'back of an envelope' economics should be able to dispute.

My biggest objection is the terminology of an x% return on your investment.

If I invest £15k in a bank at 4%, at the end of a year I have £15,600 that I can spend.

Invest £15k on solar PV and you will have, say, £1,500 in the bank to spend and some panels on your roof that will earn you money in future.
years.

If you want to advance from 'back of an envelope' economics - consider this:

You spend that £15,600 on, say, an extension to your house then you obtain that extension at 2011 prices.

If you wait until, say, 2021 to extend your house(when your savings from solar PV might be £15,600) how much will the extension cost?

You have of course made you wife happy with the extension and it has enhanced the value of your property.

Rodders57

Cardew wrote: »

That is an excellent summing up of the situation, that nobody who with a reasonable appreciation of solar PV and even 'back of an envelope' economics should be able to dispute.

My biggest objection is the terminology of an x% return on your investment.

If I invest £15k in a bank at 4%, at the end of a year I have £15,600 that I can spend.

Invest £15k on solar PV and you will have, say, £1,500 in the bank to spend and some panels on your roof that will earn you money in future.
years.

If you want to advance from 'back of an envelope' economics - consider this:

You spend that £15,600 on, say, an extension to your house then you obtain that extension at 2011 prices.

If you wait until, say, 2021 to extend your house(when your savings from solar PV might be £15,600) how much will the extension cost?

You have of course made you wife happy with the extension and it has enhanced the value of your property.

Or use another analogy if you pay into a private pension you will probably get a better return with PV

noncom_2

Why, Cardew, that's the nicest thing you've ever said to me.... !!

I don't dispute that there may be "investments" which can be argued to give a better return for your money (although, arguably at higher risk than the FIT scheme).

I don't dispute either that there may be "investments" which might be more "fun" than Solar PV.

All I try to argue is that for a certain style of "investor", who takes a long term financial and environmental view, Solar PV can make sense even once you get past the BS from some of the, let's say, "over-enthusiastic" salespeople.

There are plenty of actions in life which don't quite add up if one takes a purely selfish "What do I get out of it?" attitude, but are commonly accepted when seen in the wider context of family, society, etc. I would suggest that environmental schemes fall into this category. Of course, there are real debates to be had about whether this particular environmental scheme is a sensible one, but that's for another day.....

Cardew

Noncom, I think we are in violent agreement!!