F&F wording - is it enough?

Moglet

My OH sent off some F&F letters (National Debtline template) a couple of weeks ago. Barclays called refusing the settlement but offering a higher one. Anyway, they haggled between them and verbally agreed an amount of 46%. The debt is being handled by CDCS.

The letter has arrived today and says as follows;

"We write with reference to your recent communication.

Our clients are prepared, without predjuice, to accept £xxx in full and final settlement of the debt, provided that the payment is made by 20th Sept 2010."

It then goes on to give payment methods.

He did tell them on the phone he wanted it in writing and to say the same as his letter, which it doesn't but is it enough.

I am thinking of calling them up to make the payment using MY electron card and recording the call with their knowledge. If they don't confirm over the phone that's it's full and final and releases him from liability then I won't make the payment.

I know people say not to use a debit card but this is my card and as such if they do try to take more money then it will be theft and they'll be in HUGE trouble.

Thoughts?

Arfhurdaly

It's not enough.

You need them to confirm, in writing, the following points:

[FONT=&quot]1) Neither you nor any associate company will take any other action to enforce or pursue this debt in any way whatsoever and that I will be released from any liability.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2) I also request that, if accepted, you will make an entry on a credit reference agency file relating to the above account as having been paid and the account closed.


Can you give us an ideal of the age of the debt, type of debt when you defaulted etc?


[/FONT]

Moglet

A DMP was entered into in Spring 2004 with the default following shortly after. It was a bank loan.

I think he did leave in the bit about the credit file but it's dropped off anyway now.

saltnvinegar

Moglet wrote: »

I know people say not to use a debit card but this is my card and as such if they do try to take more money then it will be theft and they'll be in HUGE trouble.
Thoughts?

Please please please don't pay via debit card because this 'theft' is so difficult to establish and to prove (especially over the phone).

If you come to an agreement send a cheque.

But do not pay anything on an 'agreement' over the phone. Get it in writing with the amendments suggested.

SnV

Moglet

I do understand what you are saying SnV but as it's a basic bank account, I don't have a cheque book for it. I could do a standing order payment but I wanted them to take the payment rather than it be forced upon them.

There is only £16 more in the account than the agreed payment so I'm not overly concerned about them taking more money out. Do you not feel that recording the call is strong enough evidence then?

My OH just wants me to pay it, he feels it will be ok but I am more cautious than him.

saltnvinegar

Hi Moglet

I reeeeally understand the desire to get this sorted, but no I don't believe an agreement over the phone is enough.

Take a look at the thread here to see Northern Rock back-tracking on an agreement made over the phone.

There are also too many threads on this board of people who have made a payment for a 'full and final' offer only to find a short while later they are being pursued for the rest either by the same company or by a different company that the debt has been sold on to.

You also need to ensure your credit file is marked correctly not as 'partially settled'.

Ultimately its up to you, I just don't want to see you get burned by the nasty tactics seen by DFW's on a regular basis, there are enough people with the scars without you adding to the list.

Whatever you decide to do the very best of luck!

SnV

Moglet

Thanks again for your reply.

Can I ask..why isn't the wording, full and final from the creditor, in writing acceptable? Also, then the account isn't shown on the credit file anymore, is it still important to get that noted - we wouldn't be able to check either.

And yeah...I reeeeeally do want to get this sorted out and move on to the next but do not want to get burned so am taking the advice on board.

saltnvinegar

Hi Moglet

Its not the fact that it is in writing, but the exact terms and phrases used. There is a template F&F letter somewhere I will try to dig out (is similar to the national debtline template) but post #2 was pretty spot on in terms of other additional phrases that needed to be added.

You said yourself that you asked them on the phone to put in writing the same phrases/content as his national debtline template letter to them but they haven't.

Ask yourself why they have not done that?!

As I mentioned there are just far too many painful posts on this forum where people have accepted a 'full and final' settlement, but, because the wording was not specific enough, it allowed the original creditor to sell on, or pursue the remainder.

Just don't want to see you adding to the list.

SnV

ItMightBeUsefulOneDay

Moglet wrote: »

And yeah...I reeeeeally do want to get this sorted out and move on to the next but do not want to get burned so am taking the advice on board.

The DCAs are very experienced in getting money out of nervous and frightened people who take short cuts because they "just want an end to the stress of all this".

It won't be the end, just another chapter.

Why have they "accidentally" omitted some key phrases? Because they will take the lump sum (thank you very much) and then sell on the remaining debt to someone else doubling their profit.

Get all the phrases in writing and don't worry about their "deadline or the deal's off" rubbish. They wants it, they needs it. They must have the money....

DVardysShadow

Full & Final is sufficient wording to remove the potential for anyone to take the matter further. Nothing should stand up in court after a Full and Final payment has been accepted

The National Debtline letter excerpt

However, I can raise £ (put the amount which you can afford to pay) and I want to offer this as an ex-gratia payment in full and final settlement of the account. This offer is made on the clear understanding that, if accepted, neither you nor any associate company will take any other action to enforce or pursue this debt in any way whatsoever and that I will be released from any liability.

is somewhat deficient in several respects

• The payment is not 'ex gratia'. In fact, to anyone who understands the Latin, it is actually insulting. It means 'out of gratitude' when in fact you are offering less than the creditor is contractually entitled to.
• The term 'full and final' legally means: full - everything owed .. final - the conclusion of the matter
• the words neither you nor any associate company will take any other action to enforce or pursue this debt in any way whatsoever are inherent in the term 'full and final'. If you don't accept that the words full and final are enough, then you need to add additional words to prevent the debt being sold to a 3rd party.

The only potential catch I can see with a DCA letter offering Full and Final settlement is that the the deadline is usually too short, allowing them possibly not to accept it as Full and Final if it arrives late.

If anything needs addressing, it is not the words 'Full and Final', rather it is having the offer open for long enough to meet the payment dates.