is this unfair dismissal?

gordikin

You've been there 8 months...how many absenses and how many days sick?

snow_white_1

2 days sick thats it

SarEl

snow_white_1 wrote: »

Yes, I did get a doctors note, also as I've been in counselling for the last 2 years all my work related problems are documented through her. I sent emails regarding the bullying, pulled together numerous formal work place meetings regarding this. Kept logs and meeting reports.

I presume that you were referring to me when you asked about professions? Barrister - specialising in employment law and only representing employees and trades unions. And I am afraid that all of this won't help you. Despite the spartan details there's enough to tell you what you are up against.

In discrimination cases the first burden of proof is on the employee to show that there is sufficient evidence that they have been discriminated against because of their disability and no other reason. Only having shown that will the burden of proof shift to the employer. Getting that far is where most cases fail - how will you prove that your dismissal was not due to poor performance, redundancy, sickness absnece, your manager not liking you... or any other reason fair or unfair (it doesn't matter - you can be unfairly dismissed in the first 12 months and that is actually ok in law!).

Then there is the question as to whether your illness is a medical condition or a disability - mental ill health, like physical ill health, is only a disability in law if it impacts on your day to day ability to do things normally. It isn't automatic, even if it has been going on for a long time. Then there is the question of whether you told your employer about a disability - if you didn't a lawful defence is that they had no idea that you were disabled and therefore couldn't have discriminated against you.

Then there is the fact that nothing you told your doctor or your counsellor is evidence - it is based solely on your word and you may not have told the truth. Anything they say is hearsay evidence - they witnessed nothing. And since your mental ill health problems pre-date your employment by some 18 months at least, you will find it almost impossible to show that your work issues had anything to do with it. Assuming that you can prove any of your work issues.

Then there is that fact that the records that you have kept are good - but that is your side of the story and you will be able to bet your inheritance that the employer will tell a very different one.

And that is where it will get nasty. They will paint you as a liar, as unstable, and as a trouble-maker - and very probably also as someone trying to cash in on a problem that never existed or was in your own mind.

If you have got this far, it will drag on for months and months - typically a tribunal can take 6 - 9 months to be heard and sometimes longer. Unless you have a union or a solcitor acting for you (and even then) you will be stressed out of your head simply trying to deal with it. Have a look at how many ordinary stable and never had any mental health problems people on some of these threads have been driven to the edge by a tribunal.

At best if the employer wants to avoid legal costs and thinks you will go to tribunal they may offer a settlement, although it will probably not be very much at all - and that may only happen after months of quite nasty wrangling.

And if, after all this, you actually won, which is rather unlikely, you may and probably would get no more than a few £1,000.

The cases you have read about are exceptional and rare.

If you think I have told you all this to put you off, I haven't. I have told you all this so that you know exactly what you will face because I see people with many years of service and far better evidence and cases face this every day. You have to be very tough to do it. You have to be very focussed and absolutely detrmined to do it on your own. And I still stand by the fact that unless you have legal insurance you will find it very hard to get a solicitor - even if you won the amount of the award would, in all probability, be less than the legal costs - which win or loose you would have to pay. I am sorry - but those are the facts. Not nice, not fair, but reality.

snow_white_1

Thank you very much, its the harsh reality of what I'm up against i suppose.

I was never performance managed throughout my entire employment so without that they cant slate my performance, it states that on the Direct Gov site. Also, I have emails stating what a good job I had been doing.

I have an excellent attendance record and have emails to state this from my employer.

I was referred by my counsellor into this company as I had low self esteem and confidence, they were helping me find work. They offered me a job with them instead of a guaranteed 18 months with loads of support. They pushed me straight into a position of authority with no training, support and not even a job description. Knowing that I suffered with depression.

My counselling reports demonstrate how I got better and through work related issues went down bank quickly. A number of people I supervised witnessed the bullying and spoke up on my behalf.

I work as part of the FJF, a government funded project to get people into employment, my salary is funded by this.

I interviewed potential employees the day before they served my redundancy, so unknowingly to me I was interviewing people for my job I was about to lose.

There was no formal meeting regarding my redundancy.

I never received this in writing either.

My meetings with my counsellor documents my distress with work months before my redundancy, why would I be lying then? I couldn't predict this would happen.

I cant be made redundant because they dont like me (also on Direct Gov)

I was the second employee in the company, many people still work there who started after me.

Please note, its not about the money, its purely the principle. If I had a case, which by your reckoning I don't I would give any awarded money to charity because I dont need it. I am a quiet polite girl, some might say a push over and I'm sick of being walked over. If they had 'just let me go' I'd be fine with that honestly. But the truth is they have lied to me for months and manipulated me. they throw my mental health in my face when it wasn't impacting on my job at all, anyone being bullied everyday for months would struggle with that.
Well I'm grateful for your comments, thank you so very much.
Its just so unfair that they can get away with it but you're right its the reality.

SarEl

snow_white_1 wrote: »

Thank you very much, its the harsh reality of what I'm up against i suppose.

I was never performance managed throughout my entire employment so without that they cant slate my performance, it states that on the Direct Gov site. Yes they can - you have less than 12 months employment! The site can only give very limited advice and it does not apply if you have less than 12 months employment because you cannot pursue a claim on these grounds. Also, I have emails stating what a good job I had been doing.

I have an excellent attendance record and have emails to state this from my employer.

I was referred by my counsellor into this company as I had low self esteem and confidence, they were helping me find work. They offered me a job with them instead of a guaranteed 18 months with loads of support. They pushed me straight into a position of authority with no training, support and not even a job description. Knowing that I suffered with depression. Where is the formal evidence of this - grievances??? Informal meetings and discussions don't count for very much - if you can prove them. And proof requires more than your notes.

My counselling reports demonstrate how I got better and through work related issues went down bank quickly. You aren't hearing what I say - the counsellor can only say this based on your word - it is hearsay and not worth the paper it is written on. A number of people I supervised witnessed the bullying and spoke up on my behalf. They will all be totally forgetful if you make a claim - this is what usually happens. Nobody wants to get involved with a claim against their own employer.

I work as part of the FJF, a government funded project to get people into employment, my salary is funded by this.

I interviewed potential employees the day before they served my redundancy, so unknowingly to me I was interviewing people for my job I was about to lose.

There was no formal meeting regarding my redundancy. Doesn't matter - they didn't have to have one, because you were dismissed with less than 12 months employment they don't have to do anything at all.

I never received this in writing either. Less than 12 months employment - there is no legal right to have anything in writing.

My meetings with my counsellor documents my distress with work months before my redundancy, why would I be lying then? I couldn't predict this would happen. Your meetings with your counsellor document what you said - they are not proof of truth. Your counsellor say and witnessed nothing. Your stress could have been faked - or it could have been for an entirely different reason and nothing to do with work. All she can evidence is that she observed your distress, not what caused it.

I cant be made redundant because they dont like me (also on Direct Gov) Again - you aren't listening. Up to 12 months employment, unless you can prove discrimination, you can be dismissed fr wearing a pink blouse rather than a purple one on Thursdays! So they can sack you. For any reason except a discriminatory one, which you would have to prove.

I was the second employee in the company, many people still work there who started after me. So? Less than 12 months employment - it doesn't matter in the slightest

Please note, its not about the money, its purely the principle. If I had a case, which by your reckoning I don't I would give any awarded money to charity because I dont need it. I am a quiet polite girl, some might say a push over and I'm sick of being walked over. If they had 'just let me go' I'd be fine with that honestly. But the truth is they have lied to me for months and manipulated me. they throw my mental health in my face when it wasn't impacting on my job at all, anyone being bullied everyday for months would struggle with that.
Well I'm grateful for your comments, thank you so very much.
Its just so unfair that they can get away with it but you're right its the reality.

I am sorry to keep repeating myself and I don't mean any offence, but they did "just let you go" as you put it. Redundancy is meaningless after only 8 months of employment - it's a nice way of telling you that you are sacked. That is exactly what they have done. They have sacked you. And due to the length of your employment you have no right to a consultation, to a written explanation or anything else - you will also find that on the Direct.Gov site if you are reading the right bit! Unfortunately, and it happens here a lot too, if you aren't very careful about what you say, people read the bits they like and totally never see the bits they don't.

I totally understand where you are coming from - you are angry, disappointed and upset. With good reason. But not with legally strong grounds. Believe me, if I could see any case here with a prospect of winning, I'd tell you exactly what to go and see a solicitor about! I do not like telling people, here or at work, that they don't have a prayer and that all this rubbish they have put up with is meaningless in law. But that's the price for also getting the times when people do have a chance. The law is not anything near what it is cracked up to be, and it is certainly not on the side of the employee in most cases. That is why people like me and my colleagues only represent employees - because we know the law is unequal and our principles tell us that we do what we can to even the ground. But to do that we also have to be pragmatic - we do nobody any favours telling them to fight what they cannot win. The law is not about what is right or fair - it is about the law.

Googlewhacker

snow_white_1 wrote: »

I was actually on sick leave due to anxiety for 2 weeks at this time.

snow_white_1 wrote: »

2 days sick thats it

I'm confused, which one is correct?

snow_white_1

2 days sick before I was served with redundancy. My doctor signed me off work for 2 weeks because of all the stress of the redundancy.

LittleVoice

It seems to me the company has decided to terminate your employment (for whatever reason it is in reality, it isn't redundancy if they are taking on someone else to do the work).

As has been suggested, their saying that it is on the grounds of redundancy is a way of dismissing you while allowing you to not feel so bad about being dismissed. That is probably their intention even if it is not being experienced by you in that way.

Looking to the future, when you apply for your next job, saying that you were redundant from this job is going to sound better than that they sacked you after 8 months. Just check that this is the reason your employer would give in response to a reference request.

It also sounds as though you are going to be better off somewhere other - perhaps in employment which doesn't start you in a managerial role if you have had no training for it.

Best wishes

LV

snow_white_1

Thanks. I worked for the Future Jobs Fund and basically to continue receiving the funding the company has to employ the stated number of people, in this case 1,500 people. If they replace me thats one extra number. I realise that I was only a number to them but I hate how they made out that they were doing me a favour due to my 'mental health' by making me unemployed.

Newly_retired

Sorry to hear about your situation but SarEl has given you excellent information and advice. You have to move on, for your health's sake. There is nothing to be gained, and plenty to lose, financially and healthwise, in trying to fight this. The 12 month rule stops you doing anything.
You need to be constructive now about signing on for JSA and getting your NI credits in place whilst you are job hunting. I hope you have some good support from family and friends.